In episode 9, Matt Carter from the band Emery joins us and he takes us behind the scenes, sharing his recent experience of mixing at a club show—an intriguing departure from his usual position on stage with a guitar in hand.
Delving into the intricacies of live performances, we explore the dynamic interplay of elements that contribute to an unforgettable concert. From the role of audience engagement to the pivotal influence of music, lighting, and the collective energy of a supportive crowd, we shed light on the artistry involved in crafting a truly memorable live experience.
The conversation extends beyond the stage, delving into the profound impact of storytelling and the shared narratives that connect artists with their audiences. Our conversation also touches on the transformative influence of podcasting, unraveling its effects on our cognitive processes and its role in shaping our perspectives.
This episode provides an exclusive backstage pass into the distinctive lifestyle of artists, offering insights into their perpetual pursuit of innovation and self-improvement. The discussion spans the creative drive that propels artists forward, the nuances of sharing personal experiences, and the indispensable role of sound in the realm of video production.
Learn more about Matt Carter and Emery at www.emerymusic.com
The Loose Connection podcast is Hosted by Chris Leonard & Kyle Chirnside
email us at looseconnectionpod@gmail.com
The Loose Connection podcast is Hosted by Chris Leonard & Kyle Chirnside
email us at looseconnectionpod@gmail.com
Follow us on Instagram , Facebook,
In episode 9, Matt Carter from the band Emery joins us and he takes us behind the scenes, sharing his recent experience of mixing at a club show—an intriguing departure from his usual position on stage with a guitar in hand.
Delving into the intricacies of live performances, we explore the dynamic interplay of elements that contribute to an unforgettable concert. From the role of audience engagement to the pivotal influence of music, lighting, and the collective energy of a supportive crowd, we shed light on the artistry involved in crafting a truly memorable live experience.
The conversation extends beyond the stage, delving into the profound impact of storytelling and the shared narratives that connect artists with their audiences. Our conversation also touches on the transformative influence of podcasting, unraveling its effects on our cognitive processes and its role in shaping our perspectives.
This episode provides an exclusive backstage pass into the distinctive lifestyle of artists, offering insights into their perpetual pursuit of innovation and self-improvement. The discussion spans the creative drive that propels artists forward, the nuances of sharing personal experiences, and the indispensable role of sound in the realm of video production.
Learn more about Matt Carter and Emery at www.emerymusic.com
The Loose Connection podcast is Hosted by Chris Leonard & Kyle Chirnside
email us at looseconnectionpod@gmail.com
The Loose Connection podcast is Hosted by Chris Leonard & Kyle Chirnside
email us at looseconnectionpod@gmail.com
Follow us on Instagram , Facebook,
I think I'm only interested in, like, the connections between things is the way I would say like I'm wired in a context way more than a focus way, like I'm interested in everything works and works together. There's I just see, puzzles and stuff, why things are the way they are, and something that seems wrong. Once you start paying attention to something, it starts. You started to go, but that seems like it's something that's not as good as it could be. Why is that? What is this? Or I'm interested in the capture and sharing of experiences, and so recorded live, creating media. All these things are very connected, but I want to have an experience that I'm thinking is powerful and then sharing.
Speaker 2:Everybody welcome to loose connection. I'm your host, chris Leonard, and tonight Kyle churnside and I are joined by the guitarist from the band Emery. His name is Matt Carter. You also may know him from the songs and stories podcast or the labeled podcast, which is all about the stories, rumors and legends of the two to the nail records Matt is. He's been super influential for the last 20 years in the emo scene. He has worked with a bunch of other bands. He's had many different podcast ventures. I know I have kind of consumed a lot of the things that he has been doing for the last decade.
Speaker 2:I've gotten to know Matt through the years, which has been kind of fun. I've kind of considered him a mentor in the kind of podcasting world and even a mentor from afar, because I like kind of studying Matt's headspace and the way he processes things and life and technology and emotions and all that right. Matt recently had an experience. He hit me up and it was like hey, let's, let's have this conversation, let's talk this through. You know Kyle and I come from being in the live sound world and we've mixed a lot of bands.
Speaker 2:Matt comes from kind of playing on stage and being a guitar player and musician and maybe even the studio as well. But the roles were reversed here and he got the opportunity to actually like mix his show and he got to kind of see a perspective from the different side, and so we kind of walk through what that looks like and what that shared experience was like. So I hope you enjoy this conversation. If you're like what we're doing here with loose connection, please make sure you hit the subscribe button on the top of the screen and share it with a friend. Like us on, follow us on Instagram, facebook, all those places you know those drill works. Please help us get the word out.
Speaker 3:Do you ever? Do you ever go? Dude, we should do a holiday song, let's do a holiday song.
Speaker 1:You got to start that so early, like we every year, is like you try to do it as late because you go, okay, now we'll start early this year. But you still do it and there's like, oh well, we don't have it mixed in on, you take a while to get it done. Then you get it done and you like, got upload to Spotify and then you got to figure out it's like oh shit, you're still doing business.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah so Christmas songs, you guys start early. What is it, though, that we put this emphasis on? The calendar year being, you know, rolling into new thoughts and new ideas, or using the idea of reflection, like what's so ingrained about humans, to do that, as opposed to, I don't know, mid year, or whatever, because we don't do it and that's like okay, at least at the year I had to do it because you're supposed to do it all the time.
Speaker 2:This is supposed to be hybrid right, we have an eight now for so the bears are just like the weather and see movies.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, but you had to get it like you don't automatically try to bump yourself out to get perspective. Most people do not have that built into their life. They don't. So they depend on the external things to sometimes do, or emergencies or the world, and then you're just shutting down for what. It depends on that. And then everybody has these fucking breakthroughs like, oh, I don't want to be married to this person anymore during the pandemic or whatever it is. You know, over the new year you get your routines broken and then you had or something bad happens or whatever. You know like something disruptive happens and you go wait, why do I even do this? What is this all about?
Speaker 2:you know it should be doing it more often, but it bothers me that like so, like from a corporate perspective. Right, it's end of the year and the reviews you're talking about business plans for next year and it's like what is different about December and Chandler? Absolutely freaking. Nothing right like.
Speaker 1:Christmas party oh yeah, it's super rigid in a corporate context, for sure, I'm sure it is. I'm sure it is.
Speaker 2:No, it's just I don't know. I find every year that fact I mean, and obviously people have, I feel like people. The New Year's resolution thing has gone way and way down through the years, you know, because people realize that's mostly bullshit, right, you know, especially when it comes to like diets. It's like if you're not willing to diet in June, you're not willing to diet.
Speaker 1:The stats are not good on resolutions like they're not worth. That's not the way to thank you.
Speaker 3:I try to do the. I try to do the reset, like every time tour ends or I get home from a long, grueling, painful business thing or whatever like. Instead of just trying to reset in January, which I probably should do more of, I always do it right after tour gets home. I just try to reset Re-aim goals, re-aim paths, draw the map you know. Clean up like that always helps me get inspired to, is like clean up. Yeah right, go through your old stuff, whether it's physical or mental, and just like clean up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm a big believer in that type of thing Systematize and externalize. You know you have to change, you have to do stuff outside. You have to externalize things and look at them and then say, what does this mean to me? Like, what am I doing, what is my stuff, what is this to me? Based on you know. Then you gives you the opportunity and say, well, who am I, what am I doing? You know we don't do that very automatically, is all.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I love this time of year though I really do. There's something about it that does make you kind of like change a little bit.
Speaker 2:So you shot me a text and I want to jump right into this. You said I had a powerful experience yesterday. I did live. Some of the hit local local show got paid. It was on a professional side, so I guess that's why it was yeah, you got paid right. That's why it's professional.
Speaker 1:I'm real, yeah, I'm a real sound guy. Now nobody can say otherwise.
Speaker 2:So you said it unlocked a lot of perspective and I said, hey, let's talk about this and lose connection. You're like great idea, because my wife probably doesn't want to hear my sound reinforce.
Speaker 3:Shocking, shocking, yeah.
Speaker 1:I came home, I was like oh babe, I understand all this stuff now, you know, and she's like cool. But she was so. It was cool because she was already wanting to go to the show anyway, because she knew who it was, yeah, and I was like, well, yeah, you can go, sounds good. And then so Josh had in our band is like he's a good sound guy, like a world class sound guy, like he's gotten the experience since I've known him and it's just been weird almost to watch him but go to the level he's at because he has so much experience as a performer and being on tour. And then when he started working at he works at Seattle and it's just like a premiere venue, this top talent with top sound guys coming every night and he just started working there for years and it's just the house sound guy in this top tier venue and he has this tour experience and he's good, like his ear is good and so it's just like he is. Now when we go on tour he just walks in these rooms and he just tells them what to like. That all the sound. He just knows exactly what he's talking about and everybody immediately reckoned I can see it in the other people that really know in those venues that they understand that he really knows what he's talking about. He'll tune their room and change their settings and get their place sounding better than it did before and it's just, you know, authoritative.
Speaker 1:In that context it's been really cool to see somebody like him gain that skill, you know, since I've known him. So I really admire that. But it makes me who used to think of myself as a good at sound and stuff, the more our band got bigger, the less I was trying to be a sound guy or something and I just like I'm a performer. But Josh is a sound guy at a crazy. He was on Sunday real estate doing their monitors. He's doing broken social scene, I mean, he's out doing tours and just big, big stuff. So like that's actually his top kind of talent. And then I'm became a recording studio guy and a performer. But the live sound I've been like like started I'm like just always assumed I've just had this distance from it, like yeah, I can do it.
Speaker 3:But that's so gross to you. Is it gross to you? Yes, it's been kind of gross to me. I think coming as a performer in the way that you listen to yourself play and then go into a studio and fine tuning and honing how you sound, getting in a live room must make your mind go to chaos yes, I like, yeah, I have strong.
Speaker 1:It's just weird, like you know. Yeah, I think it's gross and it's like to me.
Speaker 3:I feel like live sound is bad it's like it doesn't sound good in a like.
Speaker 1:But yet a live context of seeing music as a shared experience is very powerful and things like the bass really moving you and you feel in all the frequencies is a big deal. But it's not like it ever, in my opinion, actually sounds good. It's like something else and in some ways I'm comparing it to like controlled recorded sound. But I know that's not right because I know there's a sacred thing to the. I love like the loud obnoxiousness of it, but it's not about it sounding good and you barely have time to this and that it's all about the skills of managing the people in the place in the room and the transition and the timing and getting it done fast. And it's like you know, I just developed it in the studio, I just developed in a different space. So I've always felt this big gulf between because I could have, if I did, my band didn't make it and I just started being a live sound guy. I would have become that, I would have had that point of view, but I just happened to have this other path where I'm actually a guitarist and turned out to get studio experience and stuff and have a very developed philosophy of those things and it's kind of been at almost the expense of what could have been.
Speaker 1:I could have done sound like. I can see a parallel universe because you know like before we were, you know, getting going and stuff I was doing sound and I was the one that would have the PA and figure it out. And you know, the first money we ever raised I was doing sound for $75 at local gigs, just just make it. You know, 75, 75 bucks and we would take this PA system and it was hacked to get this. You know free cables, getting people's trash cables and solder, and I'm making PA systems and fix an old snake. So I'd have a snake. Oh my gosh, like I've been. You know I was at that amateur level and then we got into the band and the band got farther and you know what I mean, I so I felt like I graduated above, above that and I'm a star you know.
Speaker 1:And then I came to think of the live sound. Anyway, josh has stayed in that whatever, so I've just seen him go to that level.
Speaker 1:So that's like the background on it, but um, it's got to be comfortable, though, like having Josh there is amazing and like even the way you explained it, you could tell that that dude makes you comfortable, like you're okay with that dude walking in and just doing their thing and so I have that experience too, of like having a good sound guy that knows what we sound like because he's in the band, do in front of house and monitors, like okay, thank God, this is good. I mean, it's like very obviously a good experience. So I know what having it done well for me is like that I know, like I know that's what I do know about live is when it, how it can be good for me.
Speaker 1:I know because it, when it happens, happens, when it doesn't, it doesn't.
Speaker 2:So but you might just not know how to make it good for you, but you know what the good experience right.
Speaker 1:So I anyway. I have an insecurity around the world like I would never know how to patch this and how do you get those menus on the freakin? And I'm like, oh my gosh, like I don't want to know any of that stuff. You know, anyway, josh got double booked a couple weeks ago and the other the band said hey. Josh said maybe you come do sound, we, there's nobody, you know else. But if you could come, come do it, will pay you instead of him. And I was like, okay, but it was the show my wife's already gonna go to, and now they're gonna pay me to go. So I, okay, I can pay for the sitter. So let's do this will be fine, let's go.
Speaker 1:And it was like a secret show of a band is really cool. So it's like a. It's like an old band that used to be a Seattle like pre emo band like in the late 90s. Really, rocky Vodalado is is the guy's name, his band was wax wing and he has this solo career and his brothers in the blood brothers, so it comes from this. You know Seattle like kind of world as a new band and he's doing a secret show sandwiched between two locals at a nonprofit venue in the city. So it's this really cool atmosphere and they only told some people because it wasn't trying to be big. He wanted to work out the music and go get stage time and be playing the songs and see how it felt in a room. His enemies are super talented guy and you know his band and everything. So I thought it was cool opportunities.
Speaker 1:I was like, yeah, let's just go do this. But so I go down there and I've got to do it and I'm just nervous. You know I'm nervous because I don't know how to do it. But there's going to be a guy there that knows the system and I know once I want, if it's all working right and you put me on the board, I'll know how to process.
Speaker 1:If I know how I want to do it and I'll be able to get it to sound good and I have the confidence I'll be able to. If I can control the system and I'm not lost or confused on patching and routing, I'll be able to make it sound the way and that'll be fun. So but I was real worried about the technology part, like if I or something would go wrong or what I'm going to walk into. Is it going to be some little Mackie board that's old, with weird cables or is a digital thing or whatever. So you know, I didn't know what I was going into. So that was made me nervous. And I got there was the big bear and your normal board was that one called.
Speaker 2:You know all the extra to extra to exactly right, right extra to.
Speaker 1:So it's like I know that software and stuff. And then you had the iPad. So it's like, oh yeah, okay, here we go, the iPad. And so because you know so I could get around the iPad better than the console. So it's like I don't really want to use the console. And it was up on the up in this thing up there. So I, and now I'm like, just jump right in. I'm like okay, I had to get, keep getting somebody. Show me that the menu and how to make sure I could get through it.
Speaker 1:But you know, I'm walking around with the iPad, you know, in soundcheck and stuff like that, and I'm just thinking, am I going to make the schedule? I don't know this. You know I feel real insecure. But but it was so different because I wasn't performing in this total headspace, this like so it's hard to describe, but it's not at all like I feel on a gig night.
Speaker 1:So I'm in a venue on a gig night at soundcheck, and I know what soundcheck normally feels like, and I'm in this completely alternative headspace where I'm like ultra analytical and thinking, you know, it's just this super detailed mode, this. It's just weird how it's just striking how different it is. Then the band who's just kind of on stage, kind of aloof or whatever and I'm thinking about these digital routing concepts and where's the feed, and we're just the sin to go to, which makes, on which side, like that intense feeling. I was like, ah, wow, what is this, you know? So I was immediately just like feeling right there. I was just feeling like I'm in such a different world, that's that. That's what sound guys are feeling like every night when I'm just up there on stage noodling, I was like the unaccessible to me to that moment.
Speaker 2:You were more caught up though, on. Do you think the reason that you were so tense with it was because you were so concerned about the technical side? Like you knew, you have the art side of the sonic side, like you know that side of it, right, so was that the barrier to totally being able just to?
Speaker 1:be like oh okay, yeah yeah, I wasn't worried that my opinion of what, how the sound should be shaped I'm confident enough in that, relatively speaking, because I've got. I just, I just would trust my ears, basically like you. But, um, but I was like an employee of it, like I felt my like, my status felt low, like you know what I mean. Like I'm not the artist, I'm some guy. If I don't know what I'm doing, oh my gosh, how embarrassing would that be to be an idiot that couldn't do it and did not make it sound good, and you the one that got paid to be here and you know what are you doing here. Like you know what I mean. It's like that kind of yeah, feeling is like I'm the only one who really should know anything here about anything technical, but and I don't know anything, so that's just scary, you know did you get a board recording of it?
Speaker 3:did you record the multitracker anything?
Speaker 1:so I brought my camera and thought it would be great to record because really I'm very interested in I don't know how to explain this, but, like I said, I don't ever think live sound like when I started first going to concerts I was disappointed is like this doesn't sound, this is all I hear, is like we, I just didn't think it sounded good or whatever. And then when I'm listening to the records, I'm loving these records, I'm connecting to them so much and I'm thinking but how do they make it sound like that? That's all I know from when I was little is like I'd hear music and I would just go. And how do you make that sound? How do you make that sound that makes this recording, that makes me feel this way? How is that done? And there's no video of it.
Speaker 1:Obviously, you know it's like it's just sounds. So it's like I had no idea what the sounds, how you know. And then you go to a concert and it kind of sounds all crazy and it's like well, I still didn't get the answer to my question, which is like what, how does this really fit to get like what's primary, the live sound or the record, or like what's the real thing, has always been a question to me and the, the fusion of those two, you know, always drives me crazy, because it's like people go to concerts and they hold up their phones and then you watch the phone back and so bad usually, and it's getting better If you notice like somehow clips of shows are getting better and find that very, very important to be a very important fact.
Speaker 2:I think there are tears of this right, and so, colin, I've talked about this before, you know the previous podcast that way. So, obviously, like on the club level, there's a level of what you what sound mixing is. You know, and, quite frankly, half of and this is you know, I, you know Kyle, did a lot more of you know church, basement and club and whatever vibe than I did. I kind of made the jump right to, like theaters and arenas and things like that, right, and so the type of mixing between these two different or completely different experiences, like I consider club mixing, basement mixing, you know, damage control mixing as opposed to creating a sonic experience right yeah.
Speaker 2:It's more it's more about what's it's. You have to really be in tune with the environment of the room, as opposed to once you get to a certain level in a theater and arena where you have enough space, where you actually have to mic everything but you actually have to put overhead mics on, right, you, you know things like that. That's a completely different level of mixing. And then add on the layer of now with digital consoles and processing, when you're at that theater and arena level. These days, now, the objective at front of the house is duplication of the record, because you have all the tools time, space, energy to do that, yeah, whereas when you are in a club type of scene, it is it is actually mixing for the room, right, right, right. So they are too drastically different.
Speaker 1:I totally believe. I completely believe that. But that's what I am most fascinated with is the the special thing that happens in clubs that it that there's like the quality of a unique setting and crowd, plus the sounds of the music, plus the way the acoustics interact with the room, that, once it starts to occur, there seems to actually be an ideal or a right and a wrong, like it starts to become this autonomous.
Speaker 3:It's it.
Speaker 1:Organism that is, there's no, it's all role players and there's no focus and it's all one thing and it's very mystical at that point. I find it very mystical.
Speaker 3:Vibration.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, it's just what. It's weird. I mean there's something very mystical and good about the whole thing. That's not anything specific.
Speaker 2:How much do you think that is dependent upon the audience member having a some even if it's back, of my psychological understanding that the combination of the space, the vibe, the energy, all those things and their level of expectation? Of what they expect in that room versus right If I go to the 930 club, or even smaller than that versus if I go to Wells Fargo center arena. They know collectively before they got there they're going to expect two different experiences and they're okay with that.
Speaker 1:Well, but the but the environments of shaping. So you know. To the other point, the arena in Illinois and the arena in Iowa and the arena in Pasadena are pretty are more similar than this club and that club. You know what I mean the features of the room and the culture and the interactions of the people in the room with the band and all these other layers. There's more important interdependent layers in that club setting than the larger they become, more uniform, basically right, as they get bigger.
Speaker 3:I can count more basement shows and club shows and strip mall club shows that I had a better experience at Right Than the arena shows and stadiums and the theaters.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, like at the arena, yeah, you can get. You know, like you said, the culture and the feeling and the vibe.
Speaker 3:It's just the way that the room works. The room works the way the room works.
Speaker 1:Right, the important fans at the front. Energy they give that the rest of the crowd then feeds off of. Like the crowd decides what its energy is on any given night. Like as a band, I know that it's like we were working really hard and they weren't doing. They weren't holding up there. Sometimes you just feel like the crowd wasn't doing their part that night. Why they didn't do their part? Sometimes you think the sound system is bad that night. Sometimes you think Toby was totally disconnected tonight.
Speaker 1:You know, but so I really believe that it's like Something special that's possible to happen, and I think I would say like this there's probably I'm just making this up and I haven't quantified it but I think it could be done. I really believe it's a project that could be done. I think there's maybe a hundred factors that can make a show good or bad, and I think you had to get something like 92 right out of a hundred to make the thing happen. And then you know, if you hit every layer perfectly is very magical, but there's a certain, there's a minimum number of things that have to go right. So in total, or that is not actually happening, like the thing doesn't quite find itself, that's happening in the space.
Speaker 2:Without quantifying that, what's the most important, do you think every night, do you think it would be an audience actually knowing the music?
Speaker 2:Like because once you identify them all, you could rank their power, ranking of how much influence that was because, for instance, you know if you are the opening act for said, you know, you know night right, the three or four bill act, you know the headline act could be the most magical experience that those Kragos have ever gone to Right, but the opening act it was the same sound in theory, the same lights, the same whatever.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 2:But you just didn't know the music.
Speaker 1:Right. So the music is a good shortcut to making it good, like if you could just require that everyone that came to any concert of any type deeply knew all the music. That's probably the single biggest factor that really makes a difference, because you've like, if the crowd shows up and they know what they want to hear and they know what it's supposed to be and they're excited and craving it and they give you the support, it's so easy to feed them in that.
Speaker 2:All right. So let's take it one step further. With you who have been around for what your first album is going on 20 years now, there's a nostalgia factor of when you play a song from your most recent album versus the old one. That's another level of connection, that's another way. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the time adds so, but yes, the song's been good, everybody knowing the song, and then the amount of time that that's had to. I mean, there's some new artists that have a new song and it's huge in the moment that can get, they can sing like crazy. But yeah, whatever's going to create the most participation from the crowd. That's what all the factors are about, though, like the lighting, they're all interrelated. If the lighting's good, it's easier for the crowd to let themselves go. Let's just say that's what it requires. Is the crowd the amount? Like if you go to play a show in LA and it's like, oh, there's a lot of industry people at this show, at a cool club with perfect sounding lights in LA, and then you go play the show and you're like, oh my gosh, that was stiff. There's a lot of people standing there evaluating you, important people. It's not the best show, it's not a good, you know. It's like there's a lot of industry, it's an industry crowd, they say, and that just means not fans, you know for your show.
Speaker 2:You and I have had this discussion. So I had the chance package 2020, before the pandemic, I was at Fort Lauderdale you guys happened to be in the same town came to solve the show at a club and I made a comment like, oh, they have these LED panels, they have all this lights, they had all this thing. And I'm like, oh, this is, it should be pretty cool. But your first response was well, who the fuck gets to make the decision tonight of what that experience is Like? That's not an emery show, that is whatever that club LD, who happens to be there is going to make that show. But that plays into that experience. It's a. It could be transcendent or it could be fricking, counterproductive to whatever art you guys are bringing across. So you know it, because you and I had a dialogue of like, okay, well, but no, I think this actually could enhance the experience. Like, yeah, but like, but who gets to make that decision?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't know, it's not a distraction, like you're watching the shapes that somebody else picked on the background behind me instead of looking at my fingers on my guitars, because it makes me insecure as them it's like what are? We doing? You know like there's so, but what you want is the artist to understand and give. You want the artist to program the lights, don't you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, but on a on my club scene tour likely. You don't have the ability to do that so, but I'm sure you have the ability to do.
Speaker 1:I'm just saying I deal. That's what I'm saying. The thing about this environment is, it seems to me that there are right and wrong answers. And it's like don't you want Josh head in the band to? Who could mix better Emory better than Josh? Well, not somebody that costs more. I don't think they could, I just don't think they could. Who could program the lights better than us? Well, nobody. It's just we don't know how or have time or whatever, but if we could control all the pixels and if I could make the cocktail menu and everything I want to like, do you want the experience to be one Like? You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:You want that every and so what part does the sound play in that? Like you know, it's like wow, but the sounds obviously a bit so what that you know that role of sound guy is so crazy once you kind of you know, I mean, like I get it Like whoa, this power that flows through me is so much.
Speaker 2:All right, but hold on. So what in point during the show? Did you get comfortable at any point on the show? Yeah, I did.
Speaker 1:That's what I'm saying. I was uncomfortable at soundcheck and all this stuff. And then when the show came, I was like, oh my gosh, but no one's going to be here, this is going to be a bad show and I mean I've got it sound. It's like all the insecurities feel present to me. And then the crowd showed up and they and when this band came on, like I said, there's a seasoned guy who knows what he's doing. So when the crowd a few people in the crowd that knew and were there to be supportive and this nonprofit, it was just cool, like it was a good place, and then went from being like an empty, weird kind of vibe to like transformed and now, oh, the guy has the focus of the room and I have the faders and everything's going to work. It just like, oh, is this right? There's a couple of things in the first song. And then I was like you know, and then I felt like you know, I felt I was riding that wave of that. I can feel it. I was like, ah, you know, and it's like I'm not worried about the guitar notes or the drums. I'm like I'm like I'm not worried about this and I've got this.
Speaker 1:And then, you know, it didn't take me long to feel pretty confident. It's like well, and I realized, you know, I'm not controlling all the sound, I'm am just sound, reinforcing the energy that they're putting out and I'm balancing it with this space, you know, and it just kind of came, it felt natural. I was like ah yeah, so I just had that. Really it was like a euphoric experience to like right, you know, the whole thing went that. You know, it felt good and I was in a totally different role and I had my cameras going and my computer capturing. So I'm thinking about how my is it, you know? So I was doing all that same time and I'm doing it on an iPad, walking around and I was just, it was just like I felt it was awesome, you know it was like how much?
Speaker 2:how much did you find yourself looking at the audience and paying attention to what they were experiencing versus the stage, given your perspective from normally reading an audience from the stage?
Speaker 1:Hmm, well, I was okay. So the word that's most useful in all this is perspective. Like that's still. The open question to me is what is the correct perspective? And that sounds like a stupid question because there's probably not. There's not a correct perspective. Like there's what it's like to be the drummer and listen to a drum wedge of a show. Maybe that's the best, Maybe if everybody could sit where the drummer is and feel that thing, where the sound is not but it feels maybe that's the best, Maybe where the singer is with all the vocals, maybe in the back of the room with the mixes, like what is the right perspective? Anyway, you know, it was kind of the way I was feel. So a fan perspective, I'm walking on the iPad, Okay, and that's just a perspective. It's the kind of the way I was thinking about it in the moment.
Speaker 3:So, being a musician and working in the studio. Nobody really writes songs for a live environment. No one goes oh, this is going to be, this is going to sound badass. Live, opposed to 40 years ago. That's all they had to offer was like a live environment recording.
Speaker 1:So that's really serious difference.
Speaker 3:And translating that to a club is hard. That's why I love little club shows for like hardcore shows, emo shows, you know what I mean. Pop punk shows, something where it's like the vibration of the room dictates the energy of the show.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 3:And those things live there, like rock bands live in club shows. It's a crazy thing. Like you can't go see, knock off Drake at a club show and have a good time. You really can't.
Speaker 1:Right, and there's the reason why I've come to terms with, like, if I'm, if you go technical, if I'm EQing, you know, the guitar in a room like that and I, you know, want to do what I would do in the studio to create the sound that I know fits the frequencies I want to fit in a real space. There's this thing where you go yeah, I don't like a bunch of muddy stuff at 240 or 300, you know 400 is probably muddy or something. But then again, in a real space, if you turn it up and it doesn't interfere like with anything else, then it's like there is space for that here. So why wouldn't I want the extra vibrations? I think I would want the extra. So it's like that starts to explain to me why the live sound isn't like perfect, like a record, because you can.
Speaker 1:A perfect like a record is like trying to fill a certain dynamic range that fits in a recording, that fits in a file. But in the real room you can make a lot more noise without sacrificing anything, like you. It's just additive, it doesn't. There's more room to hear all these other crazy sounds too Without you still get. You get just more total energy happening. And so it's like yeah, let that rumble, like put that rumble back in. Whatever that rumbly sound was, just add that back because it fit somehow in the room, like it felt right in the room, so just let it be. Who cares what frequency it is, or that it sounds a little this room's bass heavy, so let's fucking go bass heavy.
Speaker 3:Okay. Well, what was the worst thing you did that day where you mess with drums a long time? Did you mess with guitars? Could you not fit the vocals, like what was giving you trouble?
Speaker 1:Well, I was scared of the monitors, the doing like the just the takes not, you know. Ultimately it just goes back to like his. Can I not make this? Can I not make the singer feel confident? He's acting like this isn't good enough yet, and what do I do to make it better for him?
Speaker 2:Oh, no, no, no. That's the psychology game. There it is, that's psychology.
Speaker 3:Miss Cleo.
Speaker 1:The big thing for me once I got, once I started, when it kind of started unlocking, so anyway, it went really good. And then the guy that was at the club was like, hey, will you just mix my bed Not in his band. But he's like, hey, will you mix this last band too? That was really good. I'll get you extra $150, man, but we just makes that makes the last band. I was like, yeah, I was having fun then.
Speaker 1:So then I would do another changeover and went to go up and set monitors in. Like I was already in the middle of the night, like on the fly, and I just, you know, it's just intuitive I just walk up there with the iPad and just walk around each person and I'm just like chatting with them, like a guitar player, like oh yeah, you want, oh yeah, and I was like it just came and I would go stay. I know what they want. Like if I was up on the board asking them, telling me point up and down, and I don't know how to do all that, I don't know what they're hearing, like that's crazy. I just walked over there and was like this I know what. I know what everybody would want if I just walk around in their perspective, yeah, and I just like walk up to this guitar player and just talk to him, make a personal connection. It's like is this good, are you like this? You're like, yeah, okay, cool, you know. I just went around and did that to the drums, like, oh, you know.
Speaker 1:Matt's found a new calling, and it was like, and then I felt like, and I just think they were blown away by that, Like I could feel them thinking though this is so good, it was just so easy.
Speaker 3:Like once. I like hearing your passion in this though. Yeah, I really do it's weird.
Speaker 1:This is like because I've been on the stage, I know like if I just you know, I don't have it under my fingers, but I know what I wish it sounded like on stage. I, I have a strong, my own strong opinion. That's probably better than their opinion. Anyway, it's almost like you know, like, and then I, you know you probably make a good touring a modern engineer.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, probably that's what I'm saying.
Speaker 1:That was maybe the most fun part to me. Like that because I understood that just like once.
Speaker 3:I got to the point right. Are you guys on wedges?
Speaker 1:Oh, we do some of birth.
Speaker 3:Some of both.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And ears are a game changer, though, like it really is. Like if you could walk around with the iPad and listen to people's mixes, it'd probably be wicked right.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:See, dude, the fear is gone. Once you remove wedges from a club and you remove, like if the guitar player has a Kemper or something that he can go direct like in, all you have is live drums and vocal. Your game out at Fernhouse changes all together.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but see, I'm that's what I become uncomfortable with that. I think I'm uncomfortable with that movement, though I feel like what I like is the noise coming from stage and then adding on top. I feel that there should. I feel that it's not right to not have guitar noise on stage. I feel it's not right.
Speaker 2:That's where the difference of like what I call damage control mixing versus like mixing, mixing right, like there's that crossover of being able to actually be responsible for whatever is coming. What people were hearing is what you put through the faders and PA, because you removed all of that additional noise on stage, whereas if the initial noise is fullback, amps, everything else, you are just creating an experience around that experience.
Speaker 1:That's what I like. That's what I like. That's what's real. The other one something is lost. And I mean just if you're, just say you're at a club show. I watch under out the other day at a festival for a side stage and it's so stupid. Cause there's just like it sounds like a drums in a gym. Yep.
Speaker 1:And it's like what am I like? The side stage for under oath is a bad experience. What sense does that make? That can't be right and you know that can't be right. You can't, you know, that doesn't make sense, that you're watching this.
Speaker 2:Well, as an audio guy, that hasn't made sense for a long time for us, only because of the word. There were well, yes, no, the, the posers, the punters. No, I mean with the, you know, for the last 20 years or so, with in years and everything else. I mean all the only ambient noise on stage at this point for most shows above a club is drums.
Speaker 1:But standing beside the drummer on the side of the stage should be the best feeling, greatest experience you could have. And it's stupid now.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it is.
Speaker 1:So at minimum.
Speaker 2:I think hold on. Why should? Why should it be the best experience? Because of distance? Or why should that be the best experience?
Speaker 1:Because it's kind of. It's just like, if you just think about it, it's just obvious that the same there's like a focus and that's where the sound comes from, and it shouldn't be that you, when you're close to it, you should feel like you're close to it. Okay.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Like it's very basic, and what I'm saying is like there's a band on stage playing and if you get near it, it shouldn't be false. Okay, this should be true.
Speaker 3:I wouldn't call it. I wouldn't call it false or true.
Speaker 1:It's borderline false. To me it's like a drums in a gym. What is this? Don't feel what it feels like to be in a loud club on side stage getting the real thing. The real thing is absent from that whole area. That's a real point of view and most people.
Speaker 3:if you could ask them where do you want to stand, that's where they'd say, if I was doing a hardcore band in a club show, yes, if I was trying to do a crazy technical band or a female singer or a pop act, I'd look at it way different. But yeah, under oath is basically a metal core band. Like you want a metal core show. Like you're standing in the state theater in St Petersburg, florida. You know what I mean. Like you want it to be loud and ridiculous.
Speaker 2:So yeah, you want it to be that. But that experience side stage you were trying to draw your emotion and vibe from the band as opposed to your experience in the audience is it's the collective experience, Right, but I mean totally.
Speaker 1:Two different experiences. I just went in the audience. I'm feeling like I'm getting an amplified version of what's happening up there, except for a method fucking happening up there.
Speaker 2:Do you think that's a musician's perspective or do you think that's the general concept or perspective?
Speaker 1:I don't think I'm just saying I don't think they understand Like it's. It's a feels, like there's an illusion that I don't really like. I mean, it's just like I want to believe that that band is making that sound and you are making it louder, but it's coming only for like, but they're playing the speakers and then it's a sound is an illusion.
Speaker 2:I do agree that I mean what we do as sound engineers, as Christina right.
Speaker 1:And I'm all for every possible to enhance the.
Speaker 1:I mean, yes, it is an illusion, like, or something. I just feel something is lost once the source sound doesn't have there's no origin. Actual source sound happening like that, you know, like the mix isn't, like something's not happening on the magical level, like when you start a recipe and you put all this stuff in with the oil at first, before it you add it to beginning but not just put spice on at the end. You know what I mean. But anyway, you know that's what's neat about the dynamic between what the band, like the band, the audience, the room and the sound guy being so interactive. They're actually interactive in that setting. That's just so cool. And if you can make the people happier with their monitors, that's going to increase the confidence in the room and it's like you're going to feel that go. It's just like the whole things of confidence, wavelength, shared wavelength. You can feel it happening is fine.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. What, then, can you describe on a any given show for you playing on stage as Emory the guitarist, and Emory what? What is your headspace like while on stage? Are you at a point where is it mostly muscle memory and you're just enjoying the experience? Are you hyper fixated on notes and the transitions and the next thing what is your headspace like on stage?
Speaker 1:I experiment with that. There's a lot of different ones you could be in and if it's feeling bad or you're not in it, if it's negative for you on a given night for whatever reason, you know you can get through that without feeling you know fake or anything. But you're sometimes you feel more going through the motions and your head can either be elsewhere or you could be concerned with. If you feel insecure, like it's not sounding good. You're just trying to like feel less bad through the set, like that's the worst it goes. It's like, well, I'm not getting a lot out of this personally, but I've got to get look, I've got to do the best I can here.
Speaker 1:But it seems like it's going bad or I don't feel, feel it or whatever, and a lot of shows you know it's like you've you mainly notice how much effort it's. It's really like it If the more effort you feel like you're having to put in, the worst it's going. I'll put it that way. So that's really the total index. Is it? Is it effortless? And sometimes it is. And if it is, I'm sure it sounds good and I'm not even worried about the sound, like I'm not worried about any details, but it's going bad. I might be worried about if there's a stain on my pants or something like that. I don't know. You know so how much.
Speaker 3:How much? How much work do you put in Emory a year as as a member and doing so much for the band? How much like time do you physically put into band stuff?
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, it's pretty, you know is it a business?
Speaker 3:I mean, is it like you work certain hours, you have meetings set up, that kind of thing, or so it's not very well-boundary.
Speaker 1:It's really kind of in the lifestyle. Even at home I'm just, you know, spending the day talking to people about stuff. I don't necessarily feel like I'm ever working, but I'm working all the time also.
Speaker 3:How is that then? Work life balance? I mean nobody really understand what an artist has to go through to get at any kind of level. You know what I mean. Like that's the part of the life that nobody outside of people in the industry or artists themselves really know about, like you guys. He said 20 years since your first album, right? So for 20 years you've been working on Emory in some shape or form and like other projects Like what does it do for your lifestyle?
Speaker 1:Like it's a kid, but it's like a kid. I have a kid named Emory. I mean, it's that simple. That's what. That's how I think of it, so it's not a certain amount of work, just whatever I want it to do good, whatever it takes then, Just it's fun to try to have it do good. I don't know.
Speaker 2:Let's take a different perspective, right, I mean? And because, for those who know you well, know Emory well, I mean I think you know because you guys have the podcast currently songs and stories and stuff right, you, you live and breathe freaking Emory day in, day out, more than just you know on stage and writing an album. Right, but you do so many of the things where you help produce other albums or artists you know, like Kingskillytoscope or others, or you you have multiple podcasts that you do. You have other artists and podcasts that you you know, mentor and talk through and do business plans for things like that. How do you compartmentalize all those different?
Speaker 1:places.
Speaker 3:I mean, I'm not going to compartmentalize, that's good, though I mean I, you know I am understanding it more the older I get.
Speaker 1:But I mean, I think I'm only interested in, like, the connections between things is the way I would say, like I'm wired in a context way more than a focus way. Like I I'm interested in. Everything works and works together and what's you know there's. I just see puzzles and stuff, why things are the way they are and something that seems brought once you start paying attention to something that's starting to start to go, but that seems like it's not, something, that's not as good as it could be. Why is that? What is this or something? So I'm just kind of driven by these positive curiosity, puzzles and they usually pull me between stuff because, all right, I'm interested in the capture and sharing of experiences. That's what I'm interested in, and so recorded live, creating media, all these things are very connected.
Speaker 1:But I want to have an experience that I'm thinking is powerful and then sharing it Just from doing recording or playing live or capturing the live thing on a video and getting the audio. What's the best way to get audio, to share this experience with people that weren't here? Like that one's very strong to me. So doing the live sound to me felt like a sub component of trying to make capture that experience, to share it. So when I go back and look at that video that I captured, I'm thinking, oh, there's me with the iPad doing the sound, so that I could get here to have this video and then show it to somebody else.
Speaker 2:How much of what you just said has translated through podcasting, right? So your evolution of what you have done podcasting from bad Christian to break it down, to label, to you know the songs and stories to what bad Christians have become, you know, that's another form and maybe we can take specifically labeled, that's another form of you curating and collecting an experience that people have from a nostalgic and or current, and regurgitating this so people can relive another experience, right? Does that follow that same line of what you're doing there?
Speaker 1:Well, a podcast is awesome because it's very similar to being in a conversation. It's not listening to a podcast isn't being in a conversation, but it feels you get a lot from it. You get a lot from listening to a podcast. I get a lot from that and I don't understand. I'm frustrated that there's not more sharing of the types of experiences that I'm having in musical settings. They're not as easy, it's hard. A conversation is the easiest Step one. Okay, first of all, we didn't have a podcast. I had to read books. Well, guess what? I don't fucking read.
Speaker 3:So as soon as they started making a podcast.
Speaker 1:I was like, oh okay, now I can learn faster and better about anything I want, because I can listen to people talk about it finally. So I was glad with podcast, I like my guests. Now, music's the same way. I can't go to every concert, you can't have a respective, you can't stand every point on the stage, you can't whatever. But the fact that there's not more sharing of concert experiences, that's more like the concert experience, is a what I care, that's what I feel very strongly about working on, and nobody else is working on it because it's not a commercially valuable thing. So I'm telling you I feel certain about it that the thing I'm interested in is there's more possible with technology now than anybody's attempting to do. Is the sense that I have about with the technology that's possible now? We are way behind on capturing and sharing live concert experiences digitally. I feel that is true.
Speaker 3:What do you feel that is missing from it? Like, what do you feel? Like, oh man, this just isn't capturing it, because there's live albums I can't listen to. I really can't, and usually if they have a DVD it's very difficult. It really is because you get so accustomed to listening to the album track and, like you said, you separate the two, the album track from the live experience. So what do you?
Speaker 1:think is gonna change that. There's an in between to be explored that requires artistry and extreme care. That is not being the resources are not being put there at this time.
Speaker 3:Is someone done it that you think's okay at it?
Speaker 1:Well, okay, so I haven't seen the Taylor Swift movie, but that's some attempt at taking experience and make it put in an environment and what. I haven't seen that, so I haven't taken that, but that's an attempt.
Speaker 3:I get it.
Speaker 1:And if you've seen some powerful music document, it's like I don't know what, the form is yet to be developed, but there's some way of making something that's like storytelling and immersive, where you get the Beatles documentary stuff, where they've done recent. There's ways to get in between all this that haven't. It would take artistry, not just somebody sticking a camera somewhere, it's like, but the artist would have to care about it. There's a few good live concert captures that are really powerful, but most of them suck.
Speaker 2:How much do you think? All right, so obviously, through the pandemic, many bands and artists did what you guys did with the week's end and I'm only man and things like that, where you did, you know.
Speaker 3:Which were great, by the way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's in between thing so I like that.
Speaker 2:It's in between, right, but so do you think what you guys did with those live captures and again, for those who don't know, without an audience, it was either in Numos or wherever you guys recorded those things. You had said that it's the closest you could get to being on stage without Emory, without being on stage at an event, but do you think there was still an element missing, whether or not being people there, you got as close to possible without the thing.
Speaker 1:I think it's a unique art form, the thing that we're doing, in that it's the most energy we can bring with just ourselves. It's not pretending that our audience wouldn't help. If the audience was there, we'd just play worse because you'd be more distracted by the audience at that point. So what we those things are designed for us is to challenge ourselves in front of each other to bring our A game. It's like an Olympic. You train for it and then you fucking deliver what you can, because me, chris, there's no audience, there's no anything. So you have to if it's like training for a fight and bring it, and then the cameras are there. So it puts you in this mental state, this extremely focused, and that's what I think makes it good.
Speaker 2:Do you think those two helped? You guys set you up for success, for Rub some dirt on it to be able to pull that off as a continuous recorded live-ish album with no audience, but still have that live gritty feel.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I mean I just like that because it's like the most challenge. I know that it's me. Those days when we're gonna tape one of those are my. There's no way it's not gonna be me at my best. Some show is just you get through the show, you mention the crowd like you might play good, you might be a good energy, you might look good for vanity, that everybody was cheering. But what's the most best? I can play fully intense with my if you just give it your all in that environment and that makes a pretty interesting in between product. But there's not much good stuff coming out of live concerts. The best stuff that comes out of live concerts these days is just a fan's point of view, going like, oh, that's cool where they were standing and what that sounded like for those 15 seconds was pretty cool. Like that's the best stuff is coming out of live concerts right now and I think that can be better.
Speaker 3:I think it could too. Call me crazy. I think we could go up from there. I remember a long time ago that some artists got fan videos to make a live video. Yeah, and they were. Those are always interesting, but I wish the audio capture Right. I listened to your thing of that band in the club that you mixed. That has a live feel to it. That's real.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:It does. It's not a camera, it's not a phone camera, but like it feels real. You can tell the volume level. You can tell just about everything. I get where you're coming from now. Right, I told you where you're coming from.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so building off of that. But so now, anyway, here's my diagnosis of what is wrong, and I'm we're a long way off from some of this, but I just feel that the path is kind of relatively clear. It just is going to take more people trying and improving and making it easier and faster and better. But the problem is video guys and audio guys are too different and they don't actually get along at all. They don't collect.
Speaker 1:Video guys and audio guys don't fucking collaborate worth of shit. It's really bad. That is the biggest problem. That is the problem because a guitar player and a sound guy communicate pretty good, a guitar player and a drummer create pretty good. You know a video guy and some other I don't know. But the video guy and the guitar player, they don't speak the same language at all. And even the audio guy, even the sound guy and the video guy like I don't know anything about your world, like I don't know anything about your world. That is a big problem, because the best video guys I know wish they had better audio, but they don't know anything about audio. They don't know anything about it or how to talk to an audio guy about what they would need or how to get it, or if they couldn't handle multi-track, even if you gave it to them on a. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Like you can't give a video guy a multi-track and say, yeah, go ahead and mix it, they're like they can't. So it's like two separate worlds and they don't even like. That is the problem. And audio guys, the way they are, are the ones that are gonna have to figure it out. It's not gonna be the video guys.
Speaker 2:I promise you it's gonna be the audio guys to figure it out. I think you need to go to like full set or something to have a lecture at this point. I think it's what this is. I'm telling you the video guys are.
Speaker 1:I mean, they'll be fine, but it's audio guys that could figure it out first. They're the ones that need to. I mean, I don't know how they need to communicate better, but that I know how to communicate with the. You know, I kind of know how to. I had to get a little bit better at video and I'll be able to translate. That's so. That's kind of where I find myself as of today. I'm going to have to get a little bit better at video and then I'll be able to translate. I'll just I'll get, if I can set up the premiere session with my audio capture where I get, and here's the audio, here's, if you're out there. This is what I believe is the path forward Get an ambient two track capture.
Speaker 1:Iphone will work. Just get an iPhone camera from a good perspective that you think will be decent and that'll be your ambient two track. Then, from the sound board a board mix is fine, but it's going to be a lot of vocals in some certain drums, you know. But if you get, if you could get the sound guy to give you a two track one is instruments and one is vocals and then you have an ambient instruments and vocals you will be able to make something. If you could get that to a video guy, he will be able to work with that and then whatever footage is captured, use that whole good audio capture as the spine and then throw on iPhone footage, 360 footage oh great, we got two special guys that have super nice cameras, whatever put it in the timeline and you just kind of build. That's what I think needs to happen.
Speaker 2:You know they do buy neural recording where they actually put like a mannequin head and they put microphones would be your ears, like they've been doing this for like dead shows and things like that for years. Maybe they should put a binaural head on top of the camera as you go around so you have the binaural movement with the camera Obviously mixed in with the other layer of music, but I mean, that way you have that real time in the space thing.
Speaker 1:That would be nice because, yeah, because, like when you switch camera angles, if you went to where the drummer perspective is, it would actually be sick. If it sounded more like it did there, like boomier and full, like it would be very cool, like you would be okay with the abrupt change from being downstage, center front of the stage and down behind the drummer.
Speaker 2:Like you, switch cameras, because that would be abrupt if you just cut camera.
Speaker 1:Well, there's an art to it is what I'm telling you. That's what it's an art form. That's what's exciting about it is. I promise you, once you start playing with it you'd be shocked, because what's magic that I've believed in since I was little, or I said earlier in the conversation is if what you see matches what you hear, you've already won. If you see it and you hear it, it's going to make sense and that feels like magic.
Speaker 1:So you would probably be shocked if you could move from camera angles and the audio changed. You would probably be shocked if it was done tastefully. If it was done wrong, you're just going to get bumped. It's not going to be immersive. But if the person making it and putting it together was, you know, doing somebody, doing an art level thing with both video and audio, you would be surprised at, I think, what would stay immersive. I think there's a lot. I just think there's a lot to do there. So, anyway, it's very cumbersome to deal with synchronizing audio and video on multiple layers and you know the audio stuff is pretty freaking technical. Let's be honest, like the thing I did use the Behringer, take my camera, capture audio on two track, fix it in Pro Tools, put it in Premiere line up the iPhone foot. I mean it's all stupid stuff, but it is a lot of stuff.
Speaker 3:So you would almost need like a filmmaker. So think of it this way, like a storyboard. You have to think of it from the audience's perspective, whoever this person is. It's a third person, but you're the first player in the video shoot with the audio.
Speaker 1:So like it's a perspective thing.
Speaker 3:It's a perspective thing. It's like those in the short clips and movies where the girl or the guys walking through the club or walking through the people you know what I mean what they hear and see in the lights and sounds from that perspective, that would be so immersive that you.
Speaker 1:It would hard to be wrong if it felt real. It wouldn't be. It's not about professional cameras or a certain it's not even about that. It's about a coherent perspective and it feeling real, even if it sounds bad or the camera's low grain or it's too low light setting, nobody cares. It feels like if you're in a club and it's dark. That's what it feels like. That's okay, you know that's part of the experience If it's cohesive.
Speaker 1:Anyway, I don't. That's what I find most fascinating is trying to capture and replicate the experience. I think you know I get it. You got to create the experience and then capture it. That's all still one, I don't know. That's the challenge to me, but I'm just. Nothing's cooler to me than the rock club concert experience. When it goes well, what's better?
Speaker 3:You sound like a real sound guy now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I just feel like I have a complete view of it now. I'm so happy, instead of just being some grumpy guitar player complaining.
Speaker 3:Now you can be a grumpy sound guy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I mean, I had a good experience, I was like I know how many times you go out and do a sound gig and it's like you come home pissed like that fucking suck. I'm sure it happens all the time.
Speaker 2:On a completely different path. I'm curious. You know talked about. Part of the reason why you started the label podcast is you needed to find a path to learn how to tell stories, and the early part of the label podcast was very, very more storytelling driven versus. You maybe veered more into the traditional podcasting where you know you're just kind of talking and the narrative will create itself, but you may not necessarily curating a story. What have you learned about the art of telling a story through the label podcast?
Speaker 1:Well, when I started doing that, it was, you know, I've always liked the idea of doing that and I'm good at audio editing. So I thought and I felt like I'm good at conversation and I have a lot of relationships, so it seemed to make sense to me. I could talk to everybody and then just edit it so hard that it would just be so powerful Like I better take clips and just like, really, because I would know what was good and I know how to do the editing and I can have these conversations with the people. It seems like no brainer. I could put together a you know, produce storytelling type of podcast, but my gosh, it's just really hard. Like there's so many practical things about it that make it not fun to me. So I didn't really like it because if I wanted to talk to somebody I'd be like, oh, I should get a clip from him. But it's like I can't just get somebody that I know and like schedule a zoom with them and not talk to them for 45 minutes, and then a bunch of good stuff comes up in that 45 minutes. But what story was I trying to tell again? And it's like, but you got to use that part, and then it's like that.
Speaker 1:What the possible assemblies of those edits became is like you know, it becomes infinity. It just becomes you could spend a thousand. You could easily spend 20 hours on an episode. It's like, well that you, you know. So I thought I would get like better at it, but ultimately I just found that having long conversations with people that we get better and deeper as we went is just overall, better that, just it. To me that's is better, more, I think it's more valuable, probably too, because, again, I think I'm a context guy and I just don't know if I'm even a storyteller, like I am, I guess, but it's like I'm a world builder. I think like there's something that's not exactly the main narrow focus. That is my favorite thing. Is it kind of is the world or the environment and for whatever reason, that's just that always keeps coming up in the stuff. I like the thing between the things and the context and is it cohesive and is it all working together more than what is the exact thing that you're supposed to be paying attention to. That doesn't.
Speaker 1:I don't. That's just whatever it is. I'd rather just ramble around in a conversation and see what happens. I don't know.
Speaker 2:No, what's funny about this is I brought it to your attention that you know one of the things you've done for me for the last decade through all the different podcasting is you have challenged the way, or you have teach me to challenge the way I think, whether it's about people or whether it's about world things, or just you know how to process life Right, but you don't ever see it as all the things that you have done from back Christian, to break it down to whatever. You don't see it as I'm teaching people how to think, but I really think that's what you've done for the last decade. If you have you have. You have said, hey, y'all should think about things differently and process things differently.
Speaker 1:No, I just have to say stuff out loud so that I hear myself say it. To make sense.
Speaker 3:And then that's just.
Speaker 1:I mean I'm talking to myself, I'm not talking to anybody else. I mean I just had to say it out loud. And if I say it out loud and to another person, then it's pretty clear to me if that was stupid or not. Usually, but if I'm talking about my, if I'm just thinking in my head, I don't know anything. I'm it's like I don't know anything unless I'm saying out loud and seeing how it, if it makes sense or not. That's just how it just feels like to me All right.
Speaker 2:Well then, all right, but the self-reflecting the last decade of podcasting because you're basically on a decade now podcasting. What has podcasting done for you? I?
Speaker 1:mean it's like I'm trying to get attention for my thoughts and ideas to see if they make sense, and so I believe in that process. It helps me and so that's why I continue to do it, because it pays dividends to me to try to make sense and see if I do.
Speaker 1:Because I was feeling all these feelings every night. And I did say I was like I got to tell Chris about these and see if they make this makes sense or if I'm crazy, and that's so I just wanted to. It's like Chris might understand what I'm talking about, because I was, I had all these feelings about it so I had to. I don't if I don't say it out loud what I don't, I don't know. I just have to say I had to say it out loud to see if it makes sense or not.
Speaker 2:Yeah, does it ever not make sense to you?
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, yeah, a lot of times.
Speaker 1:That didn't really. I just weighed. You know, I can become a believer like in some idea that's like doesn't really work out, like that's like the what I wanted to do for the label podcast is like how long does I stay married to that idea, that concept, before I realized this is so impractical? I hate it. I mean I hated doing it that way so I had to stop eventually. But I thought it was a good idea so I did do it and that. You know, just that's just I just process out. I mean I don't.
Speaker 3:I'm. You know what I mean I process kind of externally that's just yeah, and I'm sure it's strengthened your network too. The people upon, people that know, people that go hey, you should get these guys on, or you should get this girl on, or like you need to have this conversation. Does it come a lot easier now?
Speaker 1:Well, I don't know, it's not that. Yes, it's definitely a lot easier, but I don't know if I'm thinking of it as successful or like. I don't know exactly what I'm measuring. It just feels closer to that. It's a discipline or a practice, like exercise to do it, and so it's not intimidating to do, which is nice because I have conversations. Yeah, sometimes I have a conversation scheduled with somebody and like oh my gosh, I don't have any connections person, they're probably not going to know, it hardly take me seriously, so I hope this isn't. I had to be prepared. Sometimes I'll start to feel like am I, you know it's a lot easier if I know the person or think they are going to respect me coming in, versus like, does this person even really know who I am?
Speaker 3:So you just vilified by saying that what I think about doing both the podcasts that we have now is like that that's the vilification is like you can have a guest on and still do the thing and learn and have a perspective on something that you never even talked about.
Speaker 3:Like there's been several guests that we had where I was like oh, like, what are we going to talk about? And I think you do try to find that connection it's some kind of weird thing, but it always comes around in from doing it. For what? Four years, now five years like the conversations have gotten better and I think it's just because I'm thinking harder now and I'm listening to perspectives and I want to ask questions that people don't normally ask. Like we're just people like why can't I ask the right questions? Like why do I have to talk about tech shit all the time? You know? Why can't I ask about the feeling or the paint, the picture you painted that night? Because the enthusiasm in your voice drove that, you know, like it wouldn't have been something that we would have said yeah, no matter what.
Speaker 3:And I think that's the connection between us all Like it's it's it's not even a music or the vibration, but it's being able to go. I can feel the passion in that person telling me about that thing that I really didn't have a perspective on until you said it. You know, that's why I have all these artist questions for you, because nobody knows what you guys go through on a day to day basis. You know what I mean. If you're not on tour, you're not on a video, you're not doing an interview, you're not doing a radio show or whatever the case is. Like what do people think about you? Like I'm just home, matt, I'm just dad, you know. Like people don't think about that, about Green Day. You know what I mean. Like nobody's thinking about what Billy Joe is doing right now. Like he's not on tour.
Speaker 3:Like and I think that comes with a lot of feeling as well Like you said, you're on the phone constantly. You're just making conversations and stuff. I just think artists and our industry play really hard into this difficult lifestyle, so to speak. Like sometimes I look at a nine to five and I'm like man, that sounds really good, but I wouldn't have it any other way and I think that's what the podcast has helped me do too. It's like it's taken a passion and I can actually think about it now and have perspective on it through other people. I mean, you've already done it to me tonight just through the way that you're explaining how you're doing this sound in this place and the fear of monitors and like Great perspective.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the experience is just yeah. I guess it really is a reflection thing to some level. It's like if you're just doing your work to get paid, you're not trying to think about it otherwise, and that isn't great. I don't think you know. So if my thoughts are on Emory at any given time, I don't feel bad about that, I feel good about it. It doesn't feel like it takes away from me if I spend effort on it. You know, versus a nine to five kind of a thing, but it's, I mean, it's pretty.
Speaker 1:I don't know if artists I don't know if artists experience is that crazy that it gets overromanticized. Also, you know, like it is certainly overromanticized on some level where people think what do they even go through? It was like I don't know, but it's. I mean I'm not even saying I guess I probably don't feel that I have a good perspective on it, like how to even really speak about it, but on some level it's very cool to feel that are in control of your own destiny. Basically, like there's not a very much ball, like I'm not, like when I'm a sound guy I'm working for I am very subordinate but very powerful. That's what's cool about it. Like that's so cool, like.
Speaker 1:My identity is not on the line. I'm not the artist here, but I am one of the most powerful. I may be the most powerful person in the room at the moment. I have the most control over the most people's experience and nobody even knows who gives a shit who I am. Is it probably even going to think about me ever? And as soon as I leave here? Whatever? And if the band plays bad, who cares? I'm not playing. They're not going to judge me.
Speaker 1:So it's just like that cool cocktail that I really thought was kind of cool about sound guy. But if you're the artist, it's like this is I. If this goes bad, it means something bad about me as a person. It does feel that way.
Speaker 3:Like you feel more right on it, for sure.
Speaker 1:You feel like there's more riding on what goes good and what goes bad, and then that usually makes artists. It's not really good for one's mind to really like. That is not really that good for people Like you know what I mean To feel that you're in the spotlight, like it matters and it's all about you, and, whether it's good or bad, like that's not really good, that's a negative, but it's fun. It is fun. It feels like you're doing important things, you know.
Speaker 2:Is there something you haven't accomplished yet that you want to accomplish? I know, I feel I feel as though you're not a very goal driven type person. Yeah, you capture, like what's in the moment, right, but I mean, like you know, you probably, I know on the onset you would you never, probably never thought you'd be playing at 20th anniversary of your first album, right, or or that you would have been a podcast or whatever. And I know you're often just trying to catch the wave of the entry, the things that are now. But is there something that, like you know, what, if I could do this? Or like, is it? What do you? What's the next striving forward for you?
Speaker 1:Well, I am, you know, intent on improving my ability to share my perspective through creation of media. Somehow, you know, I feel there's something to express about what it's like to. What do I see at a concert and what do I hear and what do I feel as a perspective person. That is part of what was like really re info.
Speaker 1:I've been having that pull where I've been taking action cameras and setting up a bar shows and trying to capture the multi tracks and saying, but what I was supposed to do with this? I've been in that mode for a long time and then doing the sound pushed me rapidly forward down that path. Like, oh, wait a minute If I'm this, Okay. So if I was just doing sound at a bunch of shows, I also could be capturing the video and like there's more for me to do here, Like I'll volunteer to do sound and then bring some cameras and you know what could I do, Like if I didn't have to play the music I'm attracted to go capture experiences. And then I sent you that. You know, that stuff I did on the field trip I went with the fifth grade.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was the same thing.
Speaker 1:So I just I got done doing that concert and I went on that field trip with the fifth grade and I was taking all these pictures and trying to like share that experience with the parents at home so that's the same. It was exact same.
Speaker 2:That's what I'm interested in. You're looking for the pinnacle of capturing and delivering experience, but not without having to have been at that original experience.
Speaker 1:Where cause? Like once I shipped that, that, those pictures off to the parents from that day of the field trip, I was like that's the best I can do in this. Like with the phone I have and the words I can come up with and organize it as good and make it deliver. But like it's the because that within the recording studio you can stay a month and do try anything but doing live sound and a day comes and goes like how in real time can you get it, synthesize it, say what it was, share it. I'm driven to that. You're right, I'm not very goal oriented, but believe in that process is what I am really drawing.
Speaker 2:Were you able to realize in the moment what success was for you in that moment when you were mixing no Like, in other words, because at the end of the day, your responsibility was to help enable, to deliver an experience for the band and make sure that the audience could be a part of consuming that experience, and so you were partially responsible for that experience. Were you able to realize that in the moment and take satisfaction?
Speaker 1:in that? Yeah, definitely. And it was just like then I was like trying to talk to the guys like well, why do you do doors at seven? I mean, when do the lights go on? When do the lights go down before the show goes up? It's like I'm so activated by it, feels so worthwhile to create and cultivate shared experience. That's the best it can be and to share it beyond who was there? That I feel that that's like my personal religion or something I don't know.
Speaker 2:So I'd have a goal around it. Well no, but I would say the pinnacle of that would be able to give an a shared experience post the original experience.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like I'm gonna go to a concert and then I'll share it.
Speaker 2:Right, because you know you can create the in the moment experience. Can you recreate that experience for others down the road?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think there's a lot to be improved about the creating of the experiences first of all Like that's primary, and then the capture and share, but both of those can be dramatically improved, in my opinion, from here. I believe that the experiences we can create for ourselves and the way we can capture and share them, that we can do much more with that. I believe we can do much more than we are currently doing with that.
Speaker 2:Do you think that for upcoming bands, that's the primary lesson they need to understand? Probably.
Speaker 1:I mean, I'm just gonna be on that as my hobby horse, but I probably yeah, yes, that's a great point and I probably should share that with people. So, what does it take for upcoming band? Well, you're gonna have to manage the perspective sharing too, not just generating. You're gonna have to figure out who is the person that should almost like you know they put a DJ in a band. It's like we have a DJ or a hype man that carries a flag in a band at some point. Well, you pretty much need somebody who's on that level of a band member.
Speaker 1:That is the perspective guy. Yeah, that's in the band and it's you, one of you, whose only job, like you know, it's weird that Josh does sound and plays in the band. So that's a very bizarre thing. It's not actually like I do not want to do sound out of Emory Scholl's play guitar, never want to do that ever, but it's weird that he does. But he's just a unicorn, but the idea is kind of right. You would you want your in-house photographer, video capture, point of view guy to like be one of you and the person that's outputting the language, the frames, the share, the audio that you want, that all of that stuff going out to be fully curated at an artistic level and to the level of perspective you know, so that high quality perspective.
Speaker 3:We should have Josh on too. That would be a weird If he's the unicorn. I got to talk to this dude for sure.
Speaker 1:Well, he's a totally weirdo. I mean, he's a weirdo. I can tell you all about how weird he is, but he's got a lot of special abilities.
Speaker 3:Know who else used to do play guitar and run their sound. Who Prince? I believe that Prince used to run sound from the side of the stage.
Speaker 1:I mean to a fault, but yes, josh is an insane troubleshooter, like because I feel that I'm very good at just the pure art form of troubleshooting and he just can just figure stuff If something goes wrong and it's an emergency, I mean he's just calm. So I mean he just he can just do like he is going to figure it out, he will figure it out. It's like when we have a butt like he and I worked on our bus, we had a bus for years it's like so fun to get stuck on the side of the road and just try to think as hard as you can about what might be wrong and fix it or whatever. He is so good at that, it's like. And then of course, that translates to anything. But he's just this pure utility guy. He's got a lot of experience, so he's a good weird because he's a fashion Guy who dances on stage and does all his performance stuff, but he's also run in front of house. It's just very bizarre that he could do both of those things at the same time.
Speaker 2:That's very weird. Unicorn is definitely the right word for that, for sure. Yeah.
Speaker 1:But yeah, I do think bands need to take everything into their sphere of control that they possibly can, including their photography, their video capture, their sound mixing. That's what I believe. That Not. It's not easy.
Speaker 3:You know, it's just, it's better if you do.
Speaker 1:There's no perfect. You know video professionals aren't what you think. They are, no offense.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I just think it's up to them. I think that more heroes can come from audio than video, personally, because it's the music is. The medium is about music here and video is secondary. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, but that's my opinion. Like, yeah, everybody shares video, the platforms are video, people are visually dominant, but we're talking about music. It's sound that we care about, and then you deliver it. There's an audio component. So, yeah, you better do it as good as you can, but it's about the sound.
Speaker 3:So it's right.
Speaker 1:People that understand sound and vibration figure out how to do video that will be better Preach.
Speaker 2:Oh man, yeah, all right, well, make sure. Hey, I'll make sure, james and some other video videographers listen to this Make sure they take some notes.
Speaker 1:Yes, you will have it back on for the world Cross over people, but it's like really not that as many as you think. There's not that many.
Speaker 2:Now I know, yeah, it's funny. Just to take it into the sports context, it's like you can have a hundred plus cameras and broadcast, but if you didn't have the couple parabolic bikes and stuff to go along to make the magic of those, camera angles work. The camera is those camera angles wouldn't mean anything if it wasn't for the sonic experience to go with it.
Speaker 1:So right, just like a shred video is so powerful, so like yeah, the video means nothing, it's like you, just if the sound isn't there, it's gone, everything's nothing and bad sound and board mixes and just all that is like it's just getting better audio that would make all kind of videos come to life is a fact, like the if had to be the real audio, but somewhat it's very challenging to get good real audio that feels all the feelings you can make in a room. Huge challenge, but payoff, big. Payoff is potentially big, you know.
Speaker 2:Awesome, matt. I appreciate you hanging out with us and hit me up with this question and having this conversation. So it's good times.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thank you guys, I enjoyed the hangout just to do it, talk to some technical people, but I just love being in the technical position for a whole night. I just you were on my mind. Immediately I was like, wow, yeah, this is fun.
Speaker 3:It was meant to be, because we've been wanting to figure out a reason to have you on, and this was perfect timing.
Speaker 1:Good, perfect timing. Good luck to you guys. I like what you're doing, so keep it up.