In Episode 6, we're excited to have James Wightman, a Music Video Filmmaker. His passion for music has evolved into creating art and music videos for bands such as Emery, The Classic Crime, and more. Explore the dynamic world of music and lyric videos, where James reveals how visuals can amplify a band's message. He also discusses maintaining creative integrity and valuing your work in the face of unwanted opinions.
James shares his unique approach to working with bands, where he creates a full album cycle experience that's cohesive from the album cover to vinyl and seamlessly integrates the music videos into this creative tapestry, ensuring a holistic and captivating narrative.
Follow James on Instagram @James.final.mp4
The Loose Connection podcast is Hosted by Chris Leonard & Kyle Chirnside
email us at looseconnectionpod@gmail.com
Links to check out James's work most of which was discussed on the podcast
Other videos not discussed
Grouplove:
Oxygen Swimming - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vUTrDYfWys&ab_channel=GROUPLOVE
Trilogy of videos - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtKdA6gU_vI
Feral Vices - Mass Produce Your Revolution - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mw_eyKi8T0
Messing - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs3M7bn6P6o and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baBqgtfO1m0
John Louis - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ysu-to9T5E
The Loose Connection podcast is Hosted by Chris Leonard & Kyle Chirnside
email us at looseconnectionpod@gmail.com
Follow us on Instagram , Facebook,
In Episode 6, we're excited to have James Wightman, a Music Video Filmmaker. His passion for music has evolved into creating art and music videos for bands such as Emery, The Classic Crime, and more. Explore the dynamic world of music and lyric videos, where James reveals how visuals can amplify a band's message. He also discusses maintaining creative integrity and valuing your work in the face of unwanted opinions.
James shares his unique approach to working with bands, where he creates a full album cycle experience that's cohesive from the album cover to vinyl and seamlessly integrates the music videos into this creative tapestry, ensuring a holistic and captivating narrative.
Follow James on Instagram @James.final.mp4
The Loose Connection podcast is Hosted by Chris Leonard & Kyle Chirnside
email us at looseconnectionpod@gmail.com
Links to check out James's work most of which was discussed on the podcast
Other videos not discussed
Grouplove:
Oxygen Swimming - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vUTrDYfWys&ab_channel=GROUPLOVE
Trilogy of videos - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtKdA6gU_vI
Feral Vices - Mass Produce Your Revolution - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mw_eyKi8T0
Messing - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs3M7bn6P6o and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baBqgtfO1m0
John Louis - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ysu-to9T5E
The Loose Connection podcast is Hosted by Chris Leonard & Kyle Chirnside
email us at looseconnectionpod@gmail.com
Follow us on Instagram , Facebook,
how I approach art and like just DIY culture. It's very much informed by Emery and the class of crime, because they really were like kind of my on ramp into all of it. And the gist of it that, like I've carried as like a lesson is the amount of cred that you give to like what anybody says should be proportionate to what that person means to you. You know what I mean. Like you, you should only listen to people that have like earned the right to tell you something.
Speaker 3:Welcome to episode 6 on stage number 4, Papaya.
Speaker 2:Sunday, sunday, sunday, no, let's, let's roll with this. Hey, all right, hey, episode 6. Kyle turns like Chris Leonard, did I just call my own name? I did. Anyway, we are back and we're rolling the episodes and today I'm super excited to have what I call a friend now, but someone I've got looked up to and I love the work that they've done. His name is James Whiteman. He's a filmmaker. He makes music videos and short films, content for album album releases like album artwork tour. Manages super cool dude. Kyle, what did you, what did you think of this conversation that we had so?
Speaker 3:I only had a week or two to look through his background, but I got super interested in his Instagram and dude is super creative, even with himself, like he pokes fun at himself all the time and it's just it's good, I do how he does it. But then we got into conversation and there was just these moments that were like conviction, moments of conviction Like he knew how to explain his stance, like, because I think at some point he took offense to it, like.
Speaker 3:But the explanations are great. The conversation was great. I hope everyone enjoys it. Watch the videos. Go to his Instagram. Check him out, james. James was awesome. He'll be back.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Well, I'm gonna have to. I'll litter the description with like video links to some of the music videos he's made, some of the content he's made. It's sick If you are in the small sector of people who are like die hard, the band the classic crime or the band the Emery's fans, you will have seen most of his content that he has done for them over the last six, eight years Music videos and maybe we can get some of those fellas on too, maybe, maybe we can. Good idea, we can.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Episode six Loose connection Episode six Enjoy this conversation with James Whiteman. James, what's the earliest memory you have of experiencing music?
Speaker 1:Oh, um, it was probably like, I don't know, like Tom Petty or Pink Floyd or something like just whatever my mom listened to on the radio, like I thought classic rock just was music. But I remember when I was like five or six I got a bunch of CDs from my mom and my brother and I got introduced to Metallica at like age five, which was like crazy, crazy and really fun, um, but also like Matchbox 20, everclear, uh, no doubt like Presidents of the United States of America, like you know, just all kind of all over the map with a bunch of different stuff.
Speaker 3:Alt Rock, child, yeah, well, kind of everything yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I mean best, best music taste of any six year old that I have I've ever known.
Speaker 3:Did your, did your parents take you to concerts and stuff?
Speaker 1:No, um, I just grew up with my mom, um, and the only concert I went to before I was a teenager was like, uh, it was like weird owl at a Boy Scout camp.
Speaker 3:Fine, all the quits after that. For sure Like you could stop right there.
Speaker 1:Weird owl was my first concert at age 10.
Speaker 3:So one of your posts that you you made, that you, I think, you put it on your Facebook. It says um punk rock since 89. And since we're talking about music, what do you think? Punk rock since 89 means Explain that to me.
Speaker 1:Uh, well, so that's, uh, my definition of myself, because that's the year I was born. Um, and essentially just like taking a, an alternative attitude towards life, more or less so the ethos that comes with the music.
Speaker 3:I believe in. I believe that wholeheartedly. I think it's. The music is part of it, but it's like a lifestyle. It's one of those things like when I was a kid there was still people walking around with like Liberty Spike Mohawks and stuff in. Um, you almost dress the culture and it kind of dictates how you act and and perceive everything. Uh, you're a creator, so working outside the box or the limitations is like what punk rock is Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean I, I grew up like you know, super bullied and single child, uh, single parent, um, and also just kind of weird. You know, like just was a weird kid, um, and so even before I ever had the ability to like, just like think about the fact that I was weird, I would just was, you know, kind of just doing things my own way and like finding weird music that was cool, or like you know, playing, like come, inventing like little games that I thought were fun, or like just you know, just sort of like pure tunnel vision, like stream of consciousness, like into, like whatever I thought was interesting, which was very rarely like what other people thought was interesting.
Speaker 3:Only child syndrome. I have that too, like I used to throw baseballs against walls to myself and kick soccer balls and like, develop all these little like games that I had to play by myself. That when a group of kids got together, I was like the awkward one, yeah.
Speaker 1:I had a. I kind of had the best of both worlds. I was. I do have a half brother that, um, we didn't grow up together but he would come and stay in the summer, um, and he was older. So, like pretty much as early as I can remember the summers, I had like an older brother that was in charge and then mom goes to work and leaves 20 bucks on the counter and then we're just free to do anything, go anywhere, you know, and we went everywhere, like you know, miles and miles across town, like across, like you know, huge highways and you know, exploring the unknown of my hometown stuff that mom didn't need to know about.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah.
Speaker 1:It's way too much.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, um, what exposed you to the punk rock culture, Like, how did you become to know that that's what you identify with or wanted to, to resonate with?
Speaker 1:I well, okay.
Speaker 1:So when I was growing up, I like cause I'm from, like you know, just single stop light, nebraska, like just nothing, you know, surrounded by corn, um, so I didn't, I was never aware of like any sort of you know cultural trappings of groups or like group identity, um, because the groups didn't exist, like there was no, there was no like scene you know, like in my high school cause, like there weren't enough people for that to be a thing, um, so in some ways I was kind of like a late, a late adopter into you know the things that would then go on to like define a little bit of like who I was socially, like warp tour or like you know, a lot of the bands and and like show culture and stuff like that.
Speaker 1:Um, I was late into that stuff because I just didn't have the exposure to like the, the connecting threads like socially that people had with all of it, um, and so I was mostly, just, like you know, kind of like a kid on my own, just sort of like googling like cool Christian rock bands you know. Like cause, I was also like heavy in evangelicalism, um, and and I remember there was this one blog and I I wish I remembered what it was called, but this guy would just list like a new post for every album that ever came out from any Christian band and then he would have like, uh, like rapid share and like like all the like illegal, illegal file hosting site, like links like mirrors for all of them.
Speaker 1:Yep, and so I would just download everything.
Speaker 3:What? What Christian band threw you back then? Because I toured with a bunch of Christian like hardcore metal bands back in the day. Like which one did you hear and go? Oh man, mom's not going to like this one.
Speaker 1:Well, my mom, so I, I uh, you know got saved quote unquote in high school. Um, so I didn't grow up Christian necessarily like in the household and like, like I said, with the Metallica thing, like you know, I I had, no, my mom had no problems with my exposure to music. She actually probably should have been a little better. Like, I think I got, I think I got, uh, the Christmas of 2000. I think I got limp biscuits significant other album and Eminem's Marshall Mathers LP as Christmas gifts. Nice, Yep, I was 10. I was 10 years old, Like, and if you like, the first song on the Marshall Mathers LP is like bitch, I'm going to kill you, and I'm like this is awesome.
Speaker 3:You're like. You're like I'm going to be a problem when I grow up. I'm going to be, there's going to be issues.
Speaker 1:So I never had the, I never had the fear, like with my mom, of you know music that she would approve over anything like that. But, um, I was kind of like in reverse, where I was like, oh, I, I like, I've, I like good music. I've found good music like through my life and now I can find good music and also it like works with like this new faith identity that I, you know, got like starting at like age 14.
Speaker 2:So did you? Did you go down a rabbit hole of like only Christian music for a bit, or was you just intermixing with what you were, what you're already doing?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I did the like you know. I bagged up all my, all my books and video games and it's like I can't do secular stuff anymore. Um, I went through that like two or three times. Um, just really like you know, excited and Pentecostal and stuff like that. But I think I just liked it all too much. And and so much of this Christian stuff, even though I liked it, I kind of knew was like bad. You know, like, like, uh, like news boys and audio adrenaline and stuff, like I was like I liked it. I was like I'll still, if you get me drunk enough with an ox cable, I'll still pull up like some casting crowns or like whatever you know, but I have no, I have like um.
Speaker 2:so if I got like a long drive to do um, like I've driven my family like Florida, a bunch from Philly and stuff, and it's like you know, and you're like between like hours of like three and five, five AM and you're just trying to stay awake and I feel like nostalgia is always the best thing to keep you awake. So like I have a nostalgia playlist and it's like old school, you know, youth group playlist that I've made and it's everything from news, boys, audio, adrenaline, dc talk, all the all the all the good stuff. Right?
Speaker 3:Remind me, I never taken a road trip with you.
Speaker 2:Earbuds are in. Earbuds are in.
Speaker 3:I'm bringing sleeping meds, yeah.
Speaker 1:I have those two, I have those playlists and I also have like cause. I was also, like you know, in high school mostly doing like alternative rock and radio rock as like the primary umbrella of everything. So I also have, like you know, my dad rock playlist of nickel back and stained and some deep. Some deep cuts in there, Like Evan's blue was like one of my big ones. That was like a pretty deep cut.
Speaker 3:I am never riding with you guys.
Speaker 2:No, there's something to be like, there's a part of it's and you know we can not go to the rubber shell too far but like, like, there's something about.
Speaker 2:Like, like you said, there's an nostalgic factor for me that like even if, like I don't may or may not resonate with lyrically or even musically at this point. There's just a certain part of it Like these are my high school years. Like I mean, I grew up, you know, we've kind of talked to us before, but like at a Christian household and like I was only allowed to listen to Christian music up until high school basically. So that was all I knew. It was only world I knew, and so you made the most of it move to one.
Speaker 1:but what was also like not bad Right. Like I mean, even if it, even if it's not artistic, even if it's not artistically doing a lot or having much to say, it's at least like craft, craft wise, really good. Like it's not, it's not an accident that is popular.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I mean like I got big into the scouting as most Christian high school youth group people did you know, and and like super tones and insiders. It's legit music Like I mean it's. I was always like insiders was always my favorite Come on.
Speaker 2:No, actually you know it's funny Five-Eyed Friends actually wasn't there for me. Like I, I was big into super tones and like, remember, had like those CD clubs where, like you put the stamps on the on the piece of paper and you and you get like one CD a month or whatever. Oh yeah, and like the one CD month that came in was Insiders, Fight of my Life, and I'm like what is this? And it's these guys and like these, like like mob suits or whatever, and I listened to it and like that, like that album changed me because they were like a heavier scout, they had like a more like a grungy riff sound to them, but anyway, so I'll go a different direction, because obviously you were raised right at the end of the MTV era Mm, hmm.
Speaker 3:So you do videos now and I'm sure we're going to get into that as well, because I definitely want to talk about that. Did you have a music video that like changed you and was like, oh, I want to do videos like that because I know you've done like stop motion, you've done live action, you've done a ton of different kind of video styles now as an adult, but yeah, was MTV like holy cow? This is the thing.
Speaker 1:You kind of. I like it's weird because, like, my life feels very segmented into like chapters and each chapter really feels like just completely, a completely different life, same, and like I got into film like in like 23, 24. And I never even thought of film as like a curiosity before that. But like, looking back on growing up before that, it's like I ate up like music videos on MTV, like not knowing, like oh, I want to make, I want to make something like that, but just really loved the experience of it. You know and like and I would watch the like. Mtv had a show that was like behind the music video.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah.
Speaker 1:And I would watch every single episode of that, like for like any single one, like in sync, britney Spears, like whatever it was they would show they'd show all the behind the scenes stuff and I always loved like just seeing the sets and like just being like, oh, that's so cool, how they did you know X, y or Z thing. I don't know if there was ever like a one from you know like earlier in my life. I remember so many of them, I think when I got into film the Daniels, when I started, when I found the Daniels, their work like opened up my imagination to like just having like an artistic voice and they're the guys that did everything everywhere all at once.
Speaker 1:Oh they, you know, they've been slumming it out as music video directors for over a decade before that, and so, like me and a bunch of friends have been, like you know, following them as, like, just whenever they make a new music video, like, you know, just so, blown away. And now they've, you know they've risen to the top of the mountain in terms of, like you know, being like indie. But you know all the I mean, what award didn't that movie win last year? You know?
Speaker 3:Have you? So when you put the chapters together you kind of touch on it a little bit, but did you always have some kind of artistic ability or creative ability? Like you said, you're making up games and stuff. Did you draw or paint or?
Speaker 1:Yeah, especially like when I mean I would draw all the time, but especially like when my brother was home we would have days where, like we literally just sit at the dining room table, we each have our own portable CD player with headphones and we're just at the table for like seven hours just drawing anything like video game characters, sports logos, like you know, making up like comic books and you know whatever, just finding ways to pass the time.
Speaker 3:The chapter is definitely attached and I'm gonna go ahead and say you have a huge Tony Hawk tattoo, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, great, great here Is. This is this video.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it might be.
Speaker 1:Kind of hard to position properly. But yeah, yeah, and that's also got a shout out Tony Hawk and Tony Hawk's Pro Skater as a another massive influence on music and lifestyle for me.
Speaker 3:Yeah and there's a new Tony Hawk documentary that just came out. I think it's like a Netflix presents one or Hulu I forgot which one it was but it's really good. It goes through his life then to now and explains about his dad and, like, that kid was punk rock. You know what I mean? He was just a nerdy kid who nobody liked his skating style and he turned it into Tony fucking Hawk, Like yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but in like the punk rock kids thought that he was lame. Yeah, totally, and that's sort of like not to put like too much of a point on it, because it's never been, I've never been like you know, like, like you know, feeling at the altar of Tony. Hawk but like absolutely like as a person, like very much a huge role model for me, Like kind of just like quietly. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:So you have a slogan you know in your LinkedIn that I think probably defines a lot of what you do. I know you, you know.
Speaker 1:On my LinkedIn.
Speaker 3:Yeah, hey man, we dig, we dig what is it?
Speaker 1:What is it? I haven't been on LinkedIn in so long, I don't know.
Speaker 2:I figured as much, but anyway, it says I'm nobody important but the goal is to make the things that I accomplish for other people important.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay, love that, come on.
Speaker 2:You can breathe a sigh of relief. Yeah, no, you know it's funny, right. So, like as we're setting this up, like I know who you are right, because you know I'm in a niche world of following some bands that we mutually like and work together, and but I mean there's other people you know. A lot of people don't maybe know who you are, the work you do right, and so for me, I don't have to describe to myself.
Speaker 2:What I know is that you do right, but I know you have a hard time describing what it is that you do to some people because you do a little bit of everything, right. I mean, let's to summarize you know you make music videos for bands, you make album art, you make short films I don't know if you've done any long film stuff. So I mean you know a lot of things being creative, mostly in video format, but you do some in art and print and things like that. I think you said you, if you'd like, tour manage and stuff. I got a little bit. Or yeah, a little bit, yeah, a little bit of it. Yeah, so what propelled you into the actual business side of working with bands and stuff like that?
Speaker 1:I think I really wanted to like.
Speaker 1:My whole personality is kind of FOMO based to some extent and like in shallow ways, but also in like very deep existential ways, and I think I was so attracted to like how cool it must feel to like be like an insider, like you know, across like the barricade from outsiders, whether that be like at a show or just like kind of like in anything you know to be like, yeah, like everyone's sort of like looking at like you and like your team or group or whatever, and like you're like the ones.
Speaker 1:I thought that was like must be such a great feeling and I wanted that with music. Like I just wanted to like hang out and like I wanted to like know bands and, like you know, know what they like did and like thought and talked about and like how they hung out and stuff like that. And I essentially just kind of like tried to make myself useful to like the bands that like I thought were cool you know, and it just sort of like honestly, like most of my like success in like you know, as an artist in the music scene all came from like just asking Emery if I could like shoot a show one time Like 2014,. The mass grade in Atlanta.
Speaker 3:What a shit hole. Just kidding, rip.
Speaker 1:That building is amazing now Still there, but it's not the same.
Speaker 3:Long as that elevator's gone, that's all it matters.
Speaker 1:But yeah, like really just you know, kind of like trying to just be like I don't, like I want to just be able to offer something that can like make me useful, and then, like that's kind of, I just kind of most of my skill sets have just been continuing to have that thought and then like, oh yeah, I can like sling merch or like, oh, I can do photo or I can do album art or I can tour manager like you know what I mean Just like always something new, like whatever's next.
Speaker 2:I think you know what you said there being useful. I think anybody who has worked in the music industry, anywhere in the music industry, entertainment industry, entertainment industry right being useful is the number one thing. It's not what you can get, but what you can give, and anybody who is willing to give more than they get is always going to succeed.
Speaker 3:That's why like your LinkedIn quote like I was like that's the perfect way to put it. You know we're accomplishing great things for other people or service providers. Like it's hard to be really good at that, it is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean I will say I'm much more me focused than whatever I wrote that LinkedIn quote, but only in terms of like, because I think my comfort with the label of being an artist never used to exist. I always had a lot of insecurity about like not really having anything to say and I always just thought of myself as like a craftsman, like you know, in service of other people. And now I very much do like identify as an artist and so now it's like I still want to be useful to other people and help them achieve the visions that they have. But now I'm like, okay, it's gotta be a partnership, though. Like now I'm interested in symbiotic relationships and trying to give and get, and like be able to find my fingerprint and like what I can add and like say about like myself or about you know the world around me through, and like with other people, like partnering together.
Speaker 2:Well, and to bring that full circle. I mean, you know, one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you is the way I would describe how I know you is that you have helped bring to life some of the most meaningful music that I've experienced in the last decade, right and man, that's awesome.
Speaker 2:Through two bands, right? So for those of you who know me, it's no shock the classic crime and Emory are two of the most influential bands, artists, musicians, art, music, whatever in the last decade. For me and it's funny because while you didn't write the music, you didn't produce the music and that stuff you brought a whole another level of element or helped bring along a whole other element in delivery, whether it be in music, video form, whether it be in art, design, album, art, you know, content creation or whatever you know that's. I mean, you know, for those who can't, say this at all right, you know, like you know, and jumping ahead right Like this.
Speaker 2:You know the latest album, you know Grimmage, right? I mean, like you did the album art. You've done the videos, like you know, vinyl is a whole new tangible medium that we have to experience music from right. So the work that you have done has literally put a whole new medium in my hands to experience the art that I enjoy so much. So what's cool is that you are able to do you and get what you need out of it, but also still support the band and deliver that experience. So I mean, how much through when you're doing your art, are you looking at that and connecting with, like delivering an experience that's already been created or enhancing that experience that's already been?
Speaker 1:created. I mean, gosh, yeah, I like to me, especially because, like now, like that's sort of that's sort of the lane I'm trying to like walk down is sort of like these bigger, comprehensive, like essentially like you know, kind of creative direction, like I want to. I want to like be sort of like a chief storyteller for like an album cycle for a band and it's so like especially on like the you know, the last two classic crime records. So there's something infinitely satisfying to me of you know figuring out like the story of the whole thing and then like the visual language of it and then letting that be like a nucleus that kind of just permeates outwards into every element of it and have it all be like consistent and telling the same story and like a hopefully a compelling one. You know that resonates with people, that's like.
Speaker 1:So that's the. I mean even just the actual vinyl variants themselves. You know it's like once every year or hopefully more than that, coming up, but like I just have like 200 tabs open in Chrome with like every, every single vinyl color possible, every single vinyl like effect possible, you know, and I'm just like, oh, I have every option in the entire world and now I have to like choose and make something and it's very scary and it's like really it like sometimes I hate myself and I'm just it feels so vulnerable and like you know, but like in the inside, that process like it ultimately ends up in something really really like neat and satisfying to put your hands on, or like to see, you know like, see people like wearing shirts that you designed or you know like, whatever it is. It's like I don't know, I get so much out of it.
Speaker 3:Yo, four days ago you released this funeral portrait thing, the 90s commercial. We got to put a link to that snippet. That is some of like. I've watched a lot of your stuff from like when you're talking about the, the older Emory stuff and classic crime, but this is crazy, like the videos that you've been doing for like. But then you release this 80s thing with the 1800 number and everything. Yeah, holy cow, like way to go, dude.
Speaker 1:Oh, thanks, dude is so much fun. Interesting Just yeah, I even figured out how to get a toll free phone number so I could make that and have it be like a real number that people can call. Oh, wow.
Speaker 3:So you were talking about the vinyl colors and sitting there and choosing all that stuff, the colors that you use in your videos, even from, like, an Instagram post. It's like they're so intense to what the music is. It's it's like you already got this thing, so I see where you're going for the artistic credit as well, like your thumbprint, your your ROI to the next person you can help out Interesting. Did you have any? Do you have any? Like film heroes right now? Who's your? Who's your people?
Speaker 1:Like in the in the world in terms of like names that people would know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, whether yeah, whether they do music videos or they do you know full, full length films, yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean like the Daniels are are massive for me and like Spike Jones and Michelle Gondry, like kind of in the same camp Also, like you know, came up in like music videos or skate videos and then got chances with features, david Fincher, same way, but then like just honestly, the most like inspiring artistic voices for me lately have just been like my friends, like my friend Isaac just did like a 26 minute long 3D VR music video short film for Manchester Orchestra's new EP.
Speaker 3:Oh cool.
Speaker 1:And it's like a beautiful, beautiful, weird, abstract, experimental thing in like virtual reality, three dimensions and like, yeah, just seeing, like my friend Brett hosts like improv jams like in the city, and they're just like people are just packed out the door every week. Like so a lot of it lately has just been like all of my friends like really finding their own lanes of like artistic output that are just like that I would have never done those things or like you know, that's only that person's fingerprint and just seeing that and then like that's just like more inspiring to me to like figure out like what my, what, my thing is, like what's the next thing that I need to do and that I can do that like nobody else can.
Speaker 2:Well, speaking of doing something like no one else can. I think one of the things that still got to me first, actually the actually the first reason that I even figured out who you were was because of your lyric videos. Oh, cool, so you know, between you know, emery and classic crime is specifically classic crime. You had made a bunch of lyric videos and it's a, it's a look, it's an inexpensive way to be able to get you know music medium into YouTube and not just be the album art just sitting there, right, let's, let's face it, people are visual these days and they want to connect with it.
Speaker 2:But I felt like I had never seen I'm sure they exist, but from the world that I had looked at videos, I had never seen lyric videos done the way you had done them, you know, to. Ones were like actually cared to actually watch the whole music video or lyric video all the way. Yeah, yeah. And specifically the one that caught my eye the most was the song wonder, which I already had loved, the song by the classic crime and, and you did this like 80s retro TV type of bit. I don't know if you can maybe try to visually describe what you kind of did with that or how that kind of came about.
Speaker 1:I don't even know how, yeah, I don't know how I would describe it with words of all hard to describe. But, no dude, thank you. I feel the same way about lyric videos and I always have like, I always see them and I'm like this is so Boring, right? I'm like, why did you spend a dollar on this at all?
Speaker 2:It's like karaoke, almost like the average lyric video is just like karaoke, like make sure you highlight the word at the right time, but like you, you have a way of like melding the words across the screen where it's like it's readable but it's like engaging and it still catches the vibe and it's not just some scenery landscape with freaking words going across the bottom.
Speaker 1:Well, I begged Matt to let me do the wonder video. I like, I begged him. I said I'll do it for free. Don't give me a dollar, just please, let me, just please, let me do it.
Speaker 1:I had no idea what I wanted to even do, but like, I like, I think lyric videos are fucking rad because it's like, at least for me.
Speaker 1:Maybe they're not rad for like people to consume, like at scale, and that's fine, but like to do them for me is like I'm essentially just getting to like play in a sandbox and like at like for the most of the time just at my computer.
Speaker 1:You know, in After Effects, just like you know, bob Ross is like happy little accidents, like just like, okay, I don't know what I'm doing, I'm just going to start trying stuff and like something goes away that I didn't expect. I was like, oh, that's really cool though, and that's why it's so much fun, because it's like I get to like, just like, you know, scratch that itch and and yeah, like thank you for the compliment of it, because like that's really how I feel when I make them is like I can't not care about, like every, like every measure of the song and like every syllable, you know what I mean, and it's like monotonous, but it's like, oh, I'll just, I'll do it for days, like I'll just like zone out and like go into a little hole and just play, and play and play until I just find like it's like oh, that works, like that fits perfect.
Speaker 3:We should put a link to that one in the stop animation one.
Speaker 2:Well, that's the full circle thing here that I'm getting to.
Speaker 3:So, alright.
Speaker 2:So our first episode with Fred Mascherino from the color Fred, take it back Sunday, all that stuff, right. And and I was working with him, helping him kind of relaunch his music career, and and I wanted to get a lyric video and like, so I, I knowingly took a bunch of your videos and send them to some people. I knew I'm like, hey, can you do something like this? Hey, who can do something like this, right? And and then I'm like, hey, I should probably just see who did these ones, right? So and thankfully you know, I went to the credits of the video is like, oh, you know, james, james, I reach out to James, I could probably figure this out, so funny. So I came, you know, I came to James and I was like, hey, I got this guy, fred, I want to do this lyric video, I like these, or whatever. And and so, yeah, you did you. I came to you and and I was like, hey, I would like video. Like, do you have any ideas? And I'm like nope.
Speaker 2:So you ended up making your. Like, do I have creative freedom to do what I want? Like, absolutely. So you ended up making this amazing stop solution thing, which I know was way more intensive than what you charged us for. But talk about the idea of again so maybe two types of clients come and do one that goes, hey, I have this idea, can we accomplish XYZ. Or someone that just says here's your palette, or not even a pallet, sorry, here's a blank canvas, do what you want with like. I imagine it's got to be struggles to both. And how do you? How do you wrestle between the dynamic of both of those decisions?
Speaker 1:They're both really hard in different ways the because, yeah, like you know, you have your, you know clients from hell that nothing you do is ever right. And then, like it's a little bit scarier to me, honestly, when someone's like, hey, just make this and then I have, like no other, no guardrails at all. Yeah, because it's like every every choice you make is discriminatory against every other choice you could make. So like every, every single decision is like discriminating against any other possible decision you could have made for that one. And then you have to do that like 10,000 times to make a piece of art. And so when there's like no guardrails at all, it's like, oh, my gosh, especially like for me, like you know, like like FOMO. I'm like, oh, but what if it's the wrong choice? You know, it's like you like just having to.
Speaker 3:What if I got myself into?
Speaker 1:Yeah well, and it's, you know, it's all it's all like, just trust. You know, because, like the best clients at least for me, and most of my clients are like my friends, but the best ones are like the ones that have. They have like a vision, or they have a part of a vision, and then they have like and they give me everything they can, and then it's just a matter of trust and communication and like trying to just like weed out, like you know what's like, what's the lane we're trying to like navigate down together. And that one with Fred, I don't know if I ever told you, dude, like how stressful that was for me. It was, it was so much fun, but I, I mean I bit off more than I could chew, because I always do.
Speaker 2:You kind of alluded to that. I know you probably brought some people into help you, or something like that, I think, at some point with it.
Speaker 1:Well, I was, I was couch surfing in Seattle, like waiting to move back here, like I was just in Seattle for like months, just like you know, I knew I was coming back to Atlanta in in May of that year but I couldn't until May and so I was just hanging out in Seattle and I decided to do that and then basically what happened was like I didn't get it. And then I'm like moving from Seattle to Atlanta and I like I think I finished it like in my brother's like breakfast nook, like I had, like you know, like 15 seconds left of like stuff I needed to like take photos of, and I'm just I have to like you know, I have this whole box of just all these like physical assets and in like your green screen and you know all this stuff and I have to like travel with it and find places to like try and set up a light. Like you know, it's just so, it was so just like flying by the seat of my pants, but it turned out pretty cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's amazing, it's again it's. It brought a whole new life to that song. Right, I mean the song is one thing and then the art of that, I mean of what you created. That stop motion was like. I mean, again, that was like that was taking a lyric video to a whole other level. You know what I mean? Like it's anyway. Yeah, go ahead, go.
Speaker 3:Oh, I was just gonna say, chris and I talked about it a lot with with audio and music, ai, and I know you did that short film. How do you see AI playing into your job now?
Speaker 1:Ooh, I, the best version of me, like embraces it and like I'm welcome to see. Like, whatever, whatever, whatever comes, because ultimately, like as an artist, there's no replacing Cause it, like, you know, it's like that's your intuition and your spirit, that, like I don't know how to, I don't know how to explain what either of those things are, but like they're only human, right. Yeah, as a craftsman that also makes money from the same thing that I do for art, it's like, okay, hopefully I can continue to find new skill sets and hone in on skill sets Because ultimately, like it will take away things that, like you know, people used to pay me money for and now they don't have to. But I'm also doing that to, like the people in the generation before me. You know what I mean. Like I'm not editing actual, like film stock, you know. So it's like-.
Speaker 3:But, like I said, I told Chris, but the AI right now still looks like 1970s black light velvet poster shit Like, or something that would have been airbrushed on a van, you know what.
Speaker 1:I mean, well, it's just a tool and it's like, how do you like tools are inherently neutral, like they don't have a moral judgment to them, you know, and like I mean I'm sure I know there are arguments that it is immoral, but like I see AI as a tool and then the morality of the tool is all about like what are you using it for and how are you using it? And like, are you trying to use it as a shortcut? Okay, for what Is that bad? Like I use AI to make like pitch decks. Now, like you know, like for like here's my idea for this music video and rather than like trying to search for like reference shots that look kind of like the vibe, I'll just like try and have like a good like mid journey prompt and just throw those in and it's like this is like kind of what it'll look like, you know, and so that's like helpful to me, like to just be able to like kind of be like here's the, you know, here's the general vision. But if you're yeah, I mean like if you're using it.
Speaker 1:I remember like in college, our college had a like an art competition of some sort and the winning piece was just some like bullshit, like Photoshop brush nonsense, and I was like okay, that's not. I mean, it looks cool, but like I could make that in 10 minutes and I'm not knocking the person that made it for making it because I didn't make it and I could have and I didn't. So it's not. I'm not saying that, I'm just saying like it was very political.
Speaker 1:It was bleedingly like. It was so obvious that it wasn't it had nothing to say, it just looked cool. You know and like and I'm just like that's. But that's true even before AI. Yeah, true, like most music videos feel that way, most lyric videos feel that way, like it has nothing to say, it just looks cool and a lot of times that's all people want and like, fair enough. You know, like I just did a music video that like they're like 1000 bucks, five hour shoot, just wanted it to look cool. I'm like cool, I need to like pay my bills too, so like that's fine.
Speaker 2:Understandable. Let's let's, let's dig. I want to dig into, like, shooting a proper music video, like so, actually, band, you know, whether it's just a band in a white room that you do lights, or whether it's a scene, or whether it's a storyboard or whatever, regardless, I kind of want to dig into what goes into that. So outside, we'll start here. So what, what, how? How would you approach that conversation of hey, is this cause? I've seen you do a couple of different styles. I've seen everything from just a straight up white, white background with just flashing lights. I've seen, you know, in a jail cell or whatever, a vibe room, you know, in a bedroom. How do you initially storyboard? Is this just straight up the band? Is it a storyline? Maybe differentiating those two? How do you, how do you figure out where that's going?
Speaker 1:It kind of just like depends on who the client is, and like who I am in relation to the client, and like trying to figure out like the starting spots, like okay, what do you want? And like, even if you don't have like a specific answer of like oh, we want like a performance video, that's all red. Like I don't, I'm not even starting with like a specific on that. It's like what do you want? Do you want content or do you want a piece of art? Like let's start there, okay, yeah, like first question, that's the first question, right. And then it's like and then I can like, if you just want content, then I can like understand it and quote it accordingly, cause I'll make, like I'll make content. I do make content. Most of the money that I make is just like editing promos for like conferences and stuff like that. Right, you know. So it's like there's nothing artistically satisfying about that, but like I'm good at it and I don't mind doing it.
Speaker 2:That's an interesting distinction. Yeah, content and art. I like, I like, I like that distinction there.
Speaker 3:Cuts are difficult in music though, Like some people do really good cuts, you know if they get the rhythm down and you having the music background, like making the cuts, is still kind of artistic right.
Speaker 1:Oh sure, yeah, I mean like hopefully there's, you know, some amount of like artistic impulse that goes into everything. But basically what I'm just saying is like I need to know, like if I, if I'm going to approach this with my soul or just with, like my muscles, like you know, my creative muscles, and I'm trying to figure out, like in the past, it'd just be like you know, like anybody needs, anybody wants a music video. I'm like, yes, please, thank you, thank you, can I like? Can?
Speaker 1:I have a few dollars for it, you know like very, very like poor mindset. And now it's like okay, I can either approach this as like a job or I can approach it as like something that's like fulfilling to my spirit A museum piece.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I'll approach them very different ways and, and you know, most of the time it's like somewhere in between the two and it's never either like all the way. One but that's like how it starts is just kind of trying to figure out what the expectations are and if the expectations include my ability to like explore, like the you know, the chaos around me and see if I can like find something in that that can crystallize and like add to the conversation of, like you know, the piece of art in the form of, like the song, and hopefully, yeah, like I mean, the goal is that, like I can make a living doing that all the time, but I don't really know anybody that is so well, how do you, how do you know?
Speaker 2:how do you know when you shot enough and just about any shoot? I mean that's a very broad question, but I mean even in that performance based thing, right, I mean it's like, well, is there an average amount of times you have to shoot, how many times of shooting one song from different angles and maybe they're based on the quantitative cameras you have per shoot and things like that. But like, how do you know, when you have enough of the angles, that when you go back and do all the cuts you've gotten all the things? Like, you know how many times the lead singer have to sing? You know the song from different angles, just to get all the angles that you might need to use?
Speaker 1:when you cut it later. Yeah, I mean ultimately, like it usually just depends on, like, the resources available. So, like budget would determine, like you know, location, which will determine amount of time. And there's ways to approach it strategically in terms of like. So, in film, like if you usually, if you do like, if you're filming a scene like for like a you know, a narrative film, like filming like a dialogue scene between two people, you'll do like a wide, like safety. That sometimes starts as like the establishing shot of a scene and usually you'll film that first and so you have it as a safety right.
Speaker 1:So it's like, if we miss something else, like we at least have that, and then you get like the beats that you know are like the most important beats. So that's sort of how I approach it is like there's never enough and like there's I don't know, there's always enough Like it. Just you know like ultimately you just have to like make do with what you have, because you could just keep shooting forever. It's like I think it's. Josh Skoggin has a quote that's like, you know, like a song has never finished, it's only abandoned, and it's kind of like the same thing. You know it's like ultimately you have to stop eventually, yeah. But yeah, I mean like there's strategies towards, like you know, maximizing your time and like wait, like order, that you can shoot, stuff like that. But I try to just figure out like what the most important things are and then like what like the safety thing is, and then just like fill it in as much as I can.
Speaker 1:And then whatever I got has got to be good enough.
Speaker 3:So did you like start off watching people or helping film or just being a person on the set doing these things, or did you pick this up from just school and doing it?
Speaker 1:Not school, but yeah, I mean, I moved down to Atlanta 2014 kind of fresh off the Nebraska boat and like also like that's when I decided I was gonna like explore film and Isaac, my buddy I mentioned earlier had like a kind of a mentorship house for aspiring freelance filmmakers. So I got to, you know, like work under him and work under and around like the housemates and people like that. But then also like the thing about it that was great is I'm also like just immediately like doing my own projects too. Like, even if they're just for fun, we'd have like just monthly or weekly, like challenges or like showcase nights or something like that and cause.
Speaker 1:You know, when you're like doing like the Hollywood, like hustle, you know it's like people that have been working on sets for like 15 years and they're like I'd love to direct a movie one day and it's like you've never they've never directed a thing, you know, and it's like, well, that doesn't seem like a life that I want to live. Like how is it satisfying to spend 15 years just moving? C stands around. Yeah, you got to work up the ladder.
Speaker 3:Kid, that ladder never ends because it's the same in the audio business. Like those people get in those positions and they're there until they're dead. It's like they're there until they're gone, type things. So it's hard to move up the ladder. So you start doing it like you just had a computer and a couple of cameras and like some software and that was it and you just rip.
Speaker 1:Yeah, more or less yeah, and even before that I like my first foray into video was just editing Nebraska football like recap, highlight videos for fun, sick Like, just for like YouTube and like message boards.
Speaker 3:You got to go sit in there and do it in there.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, just on my own. Like I would just rip the games like from the internet and like find like the radio highlights and just make like you know, like find a cool song and like just make like a little like three minute like video just for fun, Like just because I thought it was like a fun creative outlet.
Speaker 2:So the funny, again small world thing about this is that's kind of how I ended up in podcasting, Right? So you know, for those who do know the Emory world and the bad Christian world, bad Christian podcast some guys from Emory has started a podcast. I was a listener and I started making cuts of some of their intros just for fun. They had this like beatbox intro that they always used to start the podcast with and it was like a freestyle every time and I was like, oh, it'd be hilarious if I like strung all these together and made a string of it and put some edits of it and like drop it in the BC club. And then, you know, joey hits me up. It's like, hey, you want to do some more of this stuff. And I started making promo clips pro bono for the podcast and like making the cover art for it and cut. I would listen to the whole episode and make it or whatever.
Speaker 2:And then here I am, you know eight, six year light, whatever, like actually a podcast and producing a podcast and things like that. So it's like I think it's one of those things that I've learned in life. Like you, just like you don't know why, when you're doing something, how it leads to something, and what you needed to learn in that moment and grab on to, and resources that you grab onto you from later down the road. And and then it just happened. So it's like again. It was like all right, what value can you bring? Bring that value and all of a sudden, you know it'll, it'll, it'll reap its benefits down down the way.
Speaker 1:It just happens. That's like how I feel about my life. Like it just happens People at like, because people ask me like for like advice and tips and stuff like that, and I try to give an answer, but it really is just like I don't know, like I've just been doing things and then, like it kind of just works out. I love the chapters thing too.
Speaker 3:I use the chapters thing all the time and I can tell when they're ending in beginning too. It really it's crazy now Like I can connect all the things from when I was a kid into these chapters that lead me to sitting in this chair today. Like, yeah, it's, it's amazing path, like it's, it's pretty cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, at least in anything entertainment, creative world, from my experience and from those who I've known is pursue something that fulfills you and ultimately you're going to find the right path Right Like it will find you as you just pursue something that's fulfilling and then eventually the money will come and eventually the right path will come after that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and like it manifests in a lot of different ways. But I think ultimately it's like you know, I I've heard people like tell me specifically like oh, I want to be like a famous worship leader, and like they specifically said a famous worship leader, and I'm like I mean cool, if that's your goal, like cool.
Speaker 2:There's a fun.
Speaker 1:I think that's a bad.
Speaker 1:I think that's a bad goal, like because, well, not a bad goal, but just like it's.
Speaker 1:It's a different priority than I have, where it's like well, a, I'm sort of like allergic to fame, like I'm kind of like terrified of it, but it's, you know, if you, if you want to put it into like Christian language, like when Jesus like says, like you know, like teaches the disciples how to pray, and it's like, like you know, go like in your closet, like alone.
Speaker 1:It's like that's how I feel about art, like that's your, if you, if you wouldn't do it, like because you had to, with like on a deserted island with nobody else around, then why are you doing it? And like, obviously you know, I mean like I feel like a hypocrite all the time because, like I make money off of like the things that I do for art and and that's like that's fine, I don't beat myself up over it. But like the thing that is true is that there is always some compromise. Like there's always some kind of compromise, yeah, and like I can embrace the fact that that's there, because I know that like I'm still doing this even when there's no money. Yeah, but, but you wouldn't be an artist.
Speaker 3:I have to. You wouldn't be an artist if you weren't the craftsman first. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean, that's not wrong, that's not wrong.
Speaker 3:That that makes it okay. It's like yeah, it's like it's all it's I don't know.
Speaker 1:It's almost like you earned it. You earned it right.
Speaker 3:You kind of you earned it, like we talk about this about. You know certain schools and trades that are being offered now and they can get right out of school and do some of the things that we're doing, like 16 year old kids are making great TikToks and insta and like making tons of money off of things. So it's like doing it the hard way. Like you said, it being a craftsman first and understanding how all the inner workings go makes you a better artist. You know it does.
Speaker 1:Well, and if you, as long as like, if your goal I'm trying to figure out how to say this If your goal is the satisfaction of the expression, then things will always work themselves out. The reason that they will is because your worldview is fine with. However, they do work out. You know what I mean. It's all about the framing of the narrative. For yourself, you might not make a ton of money, but if your goal is the expression, you don't care about making a lot of money. You might make money and that's great. I'd love to make more money. I don't make any money, I don't make anything, but I make enough. I'm alive and I'm eating and I have a place to live and I'm having a blast. That's good enough for me, at least for now.
Speaker 2:So I'm curious. So Kyle and I kind of come from the live world and I've done live things, but our medium that we do I mean we do audio live, we transmit and we engage in a live experience and so the most rewarding and engaging part of us is the connection, like that in-the-moment connection, whereas for you, a lot of what you do is stretched over a long period of time. So what is the most rewarding or engaging part of the process? So like when something takes weeks, months to create?
Speaker 3:When you get your adrenaline high.
Speaker 2:No, but like is it? I mean, is it and I'm sure there's almost bits of it you enjoy, but like, at the end of the day, like is it the most rewarding part? Someone actually consuming your content? Is it the initial idea? What is it? Is the most engaging and inspiring part that keeps driving you further.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, I mean, ultimately it's the satisfaction of the expression, right, and that's just all.
Speaker 1:That's like all internal and that's like the main reason that like it's rewarding, it's like has nothing to do with the audience. But then on top of that, the I try to find like little ways that I can have you know something like what you have like at a live show, like little ways to have like you know, like, oh, I'm gonna have like all my friends over for like a premiere, like for a music video, to like be able to like have a captive audience. It's like it's tough in this age to have a captive audience as an artist unless you're doing like live music, right, any other, any other like format or like medium of art, it's hard except for like a live experience. So we, like our film community, has like a film event where we make like weekly short films and then we get to premiere them like in the room to a live audience and it's the most rewarding, like incredible thing ever and like everyone's only doing it for the, for the sake of that satisfaction.
Speaker 1:But it's so powerful because it's, like you know, 70 people in a room like cheering your name and so happy that you made something for fun, versus like 70 views on like a YouTube, like on a music video on YouTube and like how worthless that is.
Speaker 2:But then like how?
Speaker 1:how, how, how, like life giving it is to like have a room of 70 people, like happy and, like you know, engaged with your art.
Speaker 3:That's right, that's awesome.
Speaker 1:But with the, you know, with the bigger stuff, that's like very much like kind of a slow burn of just. You know like, every time I'm at a show and like I see like someone like wearing a shirt that I designed is, like you know, just a little little bit of a drop of the like dopamine hit. Yeah, seeing people like you know just posting like the you know like when they get their vinyl in the mail and stuff like that like that's all very rewarding too.
Speaker 1:But yeah, I try to find like film, film has room to grow closer to like a concert experience, like a live, a live experience. And we're not there yet, at least in at like the indie level that I'm at. You know, there's something really amazing I'm sure about, like you know, like having a red carpet premiere for a huge film. Like that's got to be incredible. But yeah, we're like our community is trying to find more ways to have that sort of that same sort of like satisfaction and like social sharing of of joy, like within film and within like our artistic expression. Do you have to?
Speaker 2:ever check yourself on factoring in too much view count and comments on content that you put out.
Speaker 3:Yeah, clicks and plays, Are you know I?
Speaker 2:mean like is, I'm sure, as a part of you who would Wanted to be seen by thousands and all this or whatever. But then when something maybe doesn't pop or whatever, like do you? Are you able to separate yourself to not have that effect it?
Speaker 3:has to be anxiety.
Speaker 1:No, it doesn't. I don't care at all, I really don't. That's good, like it's cool. It's cool if it gets a lot of views, like that's great, but like, but if it doesn't, or or actually you know what I actually you're making?
Speaker 2:something for that you want people to like. So I guess, if I were in your shoes, I'm traveling myself in your shoes, right, okay, I've poured myself into something that I'm creating this meeting that I want people to experience, and if it doesn't, people don't actually experience it. Does you ever feel like, was that for not?
Speaker 1:like I don't know, like no, because it was for me. Like that, ultimately it was for me. You know and like and that's good, like I've made short films that like I've never shown anybody, you know and like not very often because I am very I am very extroverted and social and do like that a lot and like I love it actually. But ultimately it's for me but yeah, like with like YouTube comments and stuff I actually love, when what I hate more is like every single comment is just talking about how good the song is.
Speaker 3:I can see that. I can see that. Okay, that's that sucks.
Speaker 1:Like it's got 100,000 views and every single comment is just like this song is amazing. Like I actually love when, like there's like three or four people that are like this video sucked because it's like at least they were like engaged with it. You know what I mean Like at least it was like real. I would I, because I can at least like trust that you know. It's like, oh, you're telling me the truth and like I can respect the truth.
Speaker 3:It just seems like it's an anxiety point for the industry right now, and for you to say that as like, completely opposite of what I see touring with artists and stuff, like they're literally like oh, we got 300 more clicks today. Oh, we got, you know, we need to get up to 500,000 plays on our Tik Tok Like they're so, like it makes the anxiety of the show like even out, like just anxiety of plays and clicks.
Speaker 2:You know what, though? I think something and this speaks to, I think, to the classic crime in every world is one thing that they have leaned into is they have learned that what matters most is you're going to have a select number of people who want to be a part of what you're doing, and they maximize that experience for that amount of people, and that's that's the most important thing. It's not what's the most amount of click, what's the most amount of views, what's the most appealing we can do. It's hey, we have this core group, if we can appeal or not even appeal, but like, engage with them the most and maximize that. I mean that's right. Would you agree with that, james? I mean, that's really what they've kind of embodied with that, or? Yeah?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's I mean they've rubbed off on me a lot like how I approach art and like just DIY culture. Like is very much informed by like Emory and the classic crime, because they really were like that kind of my on ramp into all of it. And actually when I was first doing Emory work on the you Were Never Alone album, I remember Carter told me one time because they were getting shit for like, oh, these videos like seem cheaper or like didn't look like, didn't look good or something like that. And I was like, oh man, like people like don't like the videos. I didn't have a budget and he was like, oh, he basically told me I don't remember exactly what he said, but the gist of it that like I've carried as like a lesson is the amount, the amount of like cred that you give to like what anybody says should be proportionate to like what that person means to you. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Like you, you should only listen to people that have like earned the right to tell you something like good or bad. So, like strangers on the internet, like in YouTube comments, even if they're like this is like the most amazing like you know music video I've ever seen and like complimenting, that's like cool, I'm glad you liked it, and like that feels nice. But it's also like I don't know you and like that doesn't matter to me. Like do my friends fuck with my shit? I care about what my friends think. Like, do the people that I respect like fuck with my shit, like I care about what they think. That's my audience. Yes, like my audience is me and it's like it's the people that I like, the people that I look up to. What they do, those are the only voices that, like, I care about at all.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's amazing. I'm stealing my job. Where's the yeah, where's the money?
Speaker 3:I should I should follow it up with the funniest fucking Instagram tag I've ever seen in my life. On his thing it said the time I traveled in a fart tube with badass dicks and rad ass chicks.
Speaker 1:That was on a Corey Taylor's tour.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I saw that I was like best Instagram. I never.
Speaker 1:Corey Taylor and the cherry bombs.
Speaker 2:So I, you know, there's, there's. I literally wish we could just walk through like all the shit you've made and just talk about each one. We obviously don't have the time to do that right, but to pick up about whatever you want.
Speaker 2:I know, I know you know, on the on the classic crime patterns and the static, the title track on that, you did a sick video that I know we don't have the whole time to get into. But I mean, you know you shot it like in the Northwest and then you shot it in the, in the, in the desert and stuff, and you have the pinnacle of that song to me. Or, from a music video standpoint, you had this scene where you know Matt runs to the water, drops to his knees, cups water in his hand, picks it up and simultaneously as he does that, it transitioned into his hands full of sand, sands pouring out of his hands. It was freaking amazing. You know what I want?
Speaker 2:to know is like when did you have the idea to do that transition?
Speaker 1:So that hopefully this doesn't like ruin the magic of this. Oh, that transition I stole from a Kings Kaleidoscope video. That's okay. Wait, which one? It's like the only like proper music video they've ever done.
Speaker 2:I don't know if I've even seen it.
Speaker 1:It's like it's old at this point but it's like Chad's, like in a bunch of different locations like forest, desert and that's. That's like one of the one of the beats and I don't even remember how how that one looks, but I remember I was just because we were on the road and we wanted to do a music video for highlights and I was coming up with all these like two complicated ideas and then like Robbie, because Robbie and the band like does videography for weddings and stuff, and he's coming up with all these complicated ideas and we're like what if there's a doorway and like it's on fire and like it was just like what if we're like clocks buried in the sand and we're all?
Speaker 1:it's like, what are we doing? Like this is, we're no way. So then we're just trying to like simplify it and then it's just like, okay, like you know, the song is about you know sort of the like being lost in the things that distract you in the world and like you re grounding yourself in the things that matter. And so it's like, okay, what if it's just Matt, like lost in, like time and space? Basically, you know like kind of just trying to get home and then we just have him walking around and like you just keep it as simple as possible. And then I was just thinking of like what do I? What music videos do I know that have that feeling of like somebody just like lost, like in nature?
Speaker 1:And one that my buddy Isaac did for abandoned Kansas is one of them that I was watching, and he just went out to the desert with Jeremy spring and a boat and they like buried the boat and like in the video he's like digging it up. And then one was like that Kings Clowns scope one, and so I was just watching through it on the road and I was like, oh, yeah, okay, okay, yep, All right, we got it out. And so then I was like then the goal was to like have match cut transitions between each location, so that because then it's like he's in the desert and he's climbing up the sand dune and then it's a match cut with his foot coming down into arches, yeah. But yeah, dude, that one was, I mean like technically, our budget for that music video was like $0. Right Cause we were already on the road. You know, I well we had to pay for like a parking pass at the sand dunes and like to camp at arches.
Speaker 2:But yeah, that's. I mean I mean traditionally that, that, that, that, I'm sorry. A music video, I mean on a scale like if you would have actually put that out for a band and all these things are relative, but I mean, that's what that's gotta be like a five, 10 plus grand video, normally easily right.
Speaker 1:Without, I would say even like way more Right yeah. Like without, without the context of tour, like for, like a, you know, like a major label band that'd be like at least at least 50 grand. That's crazy and I like honestly that's probably the best piece of work, at least in terms of like in some metric. That's probably the best piece of work that I've made and it it feels it feels expensive.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it does. It's it's from a from a, from a music video standpoint. It's it's of the work that I know that you've done. That's the most cinematic looking art that you've done, from a music video standpoint, for sure. Thanks, dude.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was really good and I I mean, I had a lot of help on that too, like Robbie helped on that a ton. And then Perry, who was on the road with us doing doing some video stuff because I was tour managing that tour Right, um, perry was my DP and doing most of the camop work on that and they, yeah, they both crushed it too, but that was. It was funny because like we had three one of the we filmed that Was it a Laked out in Yosemite that we flew to like in a Cessna water plane? Um, cause the band has a fan that owns an airstrip and he flew us out there.
Speaker 1:Um, and that was on and off day is no big deal. But then the next two were like in in between gigs, like the next day type of thing, and so I drive us like as far as I could and then like wake us up like super early and the band is like getting so grumpy it's like this music video better fucking be worth it, Cause like they can't sleep in the back when the RV is bouncing, cause it's like just it's really bouncy in the back, and so we're driving late and then like they're like waking up at seven o'clock, like in the middle of the desert.
Speaker 2:So you know, creative creativity often requires overcoming blocks or challenges. So do you have strategies or techniques to kind of push through those times Like, what does? What does that look like for you?
Speaker 1:Uh, the best thing that I have which I'm not good at, I'm actually terrible at it, but it's it's the goal is, um, stephen King says like his only goal every day is just 500 shitty words, like his book on writing, which is an amazing book that's like his only goal every single day is 500 shitty words. I think I'm so bad at it and it's just because I'm like I'm so scared most of the time, like you know, of Making choices, like making the right choices. You know, just I don't know. I like my process as an artist is like kind of miserable and I'm trying to figure out if there's a way to like be an artist and not be miserable making art I'm not sure yet.
Speaker 1:Like some people seem it seems easy and it's like so torturous for me, but I think that what what that does functionally is, if you just start doing it and you're not scared of it being bad, the the action of doing it, you eventually will just like hit flow, state and then you just know Like what's good, like you know you're, you basically like Primed up your intuition, like your intuition needs to like warm up, and that's why it's like so scary to just dive in and like why you have that blockage, because you're like you can't just turn it on, like you have to, like you have to coax it out and, like you know, have it take some time, but I think that's what. What that does, if you are able to do it is like just go, like just start going and then, like you're gonna find it like once you're once you're going.
Speaker 3:So do you like forecast, what do you see in the future for yourself, like where you're at now, where you're going, do you, do you have a map to where you're going, or are you just kind of doing the thing?
Speaker 1:No, I mean, I have, like, I have goals, but they're all like you know, if they don't happen, it's like they don't happen, like, and I'll Basically the the things that I want to be doing, the main one I'm already doing, which is like just making Art with my friends, and I'm doing that at a level that is incredibly satisfying and if I can just keep doing this until I die, like I'm so happy. More specifically, I want to like start, you know, figuring out how to Creative direct album cycles for bands, and so far, matt McDonald's, the classic crime and vocal few are the only two that like he's the only one that's given me the opportunity. So I'm just trying to figure out how to Like, how to market that or like, how to like, you know, cast a vision for that, because It'd be nice to have like case studies that are like just just one band that's not like oh, it's one of Matt McDonald's two bands. Well, let's, let's describe what that looks like then.
Speaker 2:So, like, for those who don't understand it, I know because, again, I've watched you create these albums, right as being a Kickstarter band and like I see the art process, you know beginning again what does that mean to do a lifecycle of an album, everything for you know from, explain that, like you know from, I think, was it was a patterns in the static, was the first one. You did that, did that for them, for yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:So like what? What does that look?
Speaker 2:like, so that maybe people can even get a Sense of what you're trying to do to create that whole product.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, it's basically just like I get the album and then you know, just like, chew with it and wrestle with it for a while and Try to figure out, like you know, with with the artist, like what's the story of this album, like what is it trying to say and what is it trying to do, and then coming up with a visual language that represents that.
Speaker 1:And it's, it's not. It's essentially just like branding, you know, like if you make like Branding for a company, like you know, and like logo marks and like how everything fits together. But trying to figure out that out in like a, in a experiential way, in like a storytelling way, like what is the, what is the visual language of this? And then how do we, you like, how do we execute that across Every medium that you have as a band, which is your album art, your videos, your Social posts, your merch, your you know, your tour ad mats, even just like what the tour is called, and like like what types of like does it need to be a tour ad? Like? What types of like doesn't need music videos or?
Speaker 1:like doesn't need something else, or like Doesn't need a live stream, or, like you know, like different factors, or like different mediums and different formats that make the sense of the most sense of, like, telling the story of this album.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like, for instance, I mean like it's. So it's not just. You know, obviously the album art is one thing, like the cover is obviously its own thing, right, and everything permeates from there. Like so, but specifically for this album, you know the concept of day and night, like splitting the album in half. How much of that was Matt's concept versus yours, when you realize that there are kind of two sides to to the album.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I Don't even know if I could answer because it was. It just was like an organic conclusion, that, like you know, one of us sent the message first, but like it just was like in the process of it. That like it kind of, because the track listing never used to. The track listing was different at one point.
Speaker 1:When I was, you mean the order, or just the names of the song, the order okay, and then somewhere along the line, when I was like coming up with you know ideas and mock-ups, like one of us kind of figured out like, oh, like thematically, if we, if this just shifts a little bit, then it becomes something a little different, yeah, um, and so, yeah, I mean it's like Don't even know where it came from. You know what I mean. Like it when I like, when I make art, it never feels like I created something new, it just feels like I. It feels like I found it, like it was already there. You know, it's like I just like excavated it From like the substance of the universe, like it was just it was already, it was already buried there. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah it, it and like I know that it is creation, but it feels like it's all. It's all, just like swimming Like in the cosmos and inside of ourselves, and like the ideas Exist, and like it's not that, like it's my idea, it's like no, I'm just the one that found it right, and like so. Then when I do that with other people, it's just like oh, we just find. We just find what this is supposed to be like along the way.
Speaker 2:No, it's sick, it's, it's cool.
Speaker 2:I mean, it's just the, the beginning to end experience, you know. You know I think that was interesting. Is that? Um, it doesn't. It probably lends itself to more of an indie band thing because, you know, nowadays it's it's you release 10 singles and all of a sudden, a year later, you have an album.
Speaker 2:Whereas what I love about you know and I know we're talking mostly about classical memory, but whatever, like you know, they have approached at least most of their latest album cycles as a project, and that's something I remember when I was younger that the albums that I resonated with the most, you know, I think back to the, the first album that I recognized as the most was, was the system of a down albums, especially specifically mesmerized, hypnotized and mesmerized, right, like there was such this Everything, like the songs actually even flowed into each other.
Speaker 2:You actually almost didn't realize if you're listening to it, like you're into another song already, and the album art was a, you know, a concept thing that it didn't make sense until you actually had both albums and then it became this complete picture through it, and I think that's been lost in Modern music. It's just, it's single, single, single single. Oh, here's a thing. Whereas I think some of the most creatively engaging art are ones where it's back to an album about a topic or at least a Central idea, and I imagine maybe as a creator for yourself, it's probably much easier to lean into an album cycle like that as opposed to something. It's a bunch of popped off, one-off hits, I don't know. I mean, if that's something I mean I'm with you.
Speaker 1:I'm with you on, like the, the Moning, the loss of the album as an art form to some extent and it's not, it's not gone, but like I'm, I'm right there with you, like in, I have the same sentiment.
Speaker 1:But Even, like you know, I've been doing a lot of work with the funeral portrait guys lately and it's been like a ton of fun and Like we're, and all we're doing right now is just singles because, like they just, they're not allowed to release their album yet. Yeah, but like the singles are working great and like, even in the midst of that we're, you know, finding these ways to, and like this makes perfect sense for their band, like to build, like lore, you know, and so, like, every music video has like an icon character and like in like a color, like a color theme, and like you know, there's consistency across them. But then, like, so we just, we just did a Music video last month that well, sorry, trying to Tell this as decently as possible we did one in July, and it's like a kid in his bedroom and then there's this night terror creature that like hypnotizes the kid and kind of indoctrinates him into the the Coffin crew cult, which is like their fan base. And then we're like, okay, we're doing another one and it's like, what should this one be? And then we're like, oh, like it'd be cool to have like a like a kind of like a shepherd character, like leading the same kid like through this house. That's like not a real place, but like maybe it's like his mind or like you know some spirit realm or whatever. And it's like, oh, let's have all the other icons like come back as, like you know, kind of like the like Ebenezer Scrooge story.
Speaker 1:And then we started doing this like Twilight Zone, like TV, fake TV show with like a host that's like kind of like ancient aliens type of host. And then we was like, oh, let's make the kid his kid. And now he's, like you know, investigating the occult and paranormal, and then like this cult, like he thinks this cult abducted his kid. And so now we just did a lyric video for their cover of Mad World and it's him like trying to find his missing son, and you know, and like our phone number that we, you know, did for the, the video Kyle was just referencing, like is him like for his like TV show hotline, like selling Like these. You know, it's like, oh, recorded at great risk by our investigators, like you know, like you know. So it's like it's all like building like this lore of the universe and it like works perfectly for their band, and their fans eat it up.
Speaker 3:We, we got to put that snippet in because the 1-800 over Solaris.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think the links in the description of this is gonna be like 30 links.
Speaker 3:Here come your clicks and plays.
Speaker 1:That's great those guys deserve it for sure. But yeah, like you know, and so it's like for them, like it's a very different approach, like and it's not the same as like I'd approach like a classic crime album and like we're not even talking about an album yet, but we're still like, we're still figuring out like the story and no, but this one's actually really fun.
Speaker 2:It's still, you're still created. No, I, there's again. That's a different level. Art, right, but you're creepy, but you're still. It is still cool when a band can have a storyline that just runs with them, when I think of, like the Iron Maidens and Disturbs right, you have this like sensual figure that you know, or ghost, or whoever, or you can, you can, you can Drop that in and it becomes this culture of that band is still a thread of art through what they're doing, right.
Speaker 1:So I mean it's still still fascinating yeah and it's a blast and it's like a totally different approach that like I've never done before, you know, like kind of it's like almost kind of building like a little like narrative, like universe, and like through music videos and through promos and stuff like that and like that specifically, I haven't ever really done. And so like this is kind of like new, a new like visual language for me, but like that's kind of like what that's. What I'm trying to do is like figure out, not like what I want to tell, even though it's like it is what I want to tell, but it's really like what is this album Tell? But it's really like what is this album's Story, yeah, and then like how do we like manifest it? You know, and it's different for every project, like they're they're so drastically different and like how I'm approaching this is completely Different to how I'd approach something with emery or something with the class of crime or you know whoever.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. I mean again. It's the goal is to make things you accomplish important for other people. Right? Big enough circle there.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, I gotta, I gotta, figure out how to log into my LinkedIn.
Speaker 3:I probably got some job opportunities.
Speaker 2:Well, james man, I really appreciate you hanging out with us. It's been fun. I've like, ever since we did this new adventure, I like you, literally have been, you know, number one on my list of like.
Speaker 3:I want to have this conversation, you know he's been sending me videos for months, even before we started started back and I'm like holy shit.
Speaker 2:I Truly appreciate the artwork you do and, like I said, I mean it's such a that's such a cool thing. So I appreciate it.
Speaker 1:Dude, I appreciate it so much, like it's absolutely an honor and I'm gonna I'm gonna ignore all the ways that I feel like I don't deserve it, but like, yeah, I'm just gonna, just gonna have some great gratefulness and say thanks. It's really fun.
Speaker 3:Thanks, man Appreciate it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, hell, yeah you.